The RB room

[Ice]

We do historically embrace the idea of a tiny 3rd down back. One of our sillier little organizational ideologies.

not sure when in steelers history you are referring to, but that hasn’t been a thing i recall in the last 20 years at least.

This guy, the tiny RB from Maryland, The tiny RB from the MAC and the tiny RB from Florida cover us for, well, a good portion of the last 10 years.

[Steeldrama]

We do historically embrace the idea of a tiny 3rd down back. One of our sillier little organizational ideologies.

not sure when in steelers history you are referring to, but that hasn’t been a thing i recall in the last 20 years at least.

Is this sarcasm?

Dri Archer 2014
Chris Rainey 2012

[Ice]

We do historically embrace the idea of a tiny 3rd down back. One of our sillier little organizational ideologies.

not sure when in steelers history you are referring to, but that hasn’t been a thing i recall in the last 20 years at least.

Is this sarcasm?

Dri Archer 2014
Chris Rainey 2012

I had forgotten the forgettable players' actual names Thanks for the assist, Drama!

[Mick]

We do historically embrace the idea of a tiny 3rd down back. One of our sillier little organizational ideologies.

not sure when in steelers history you are referring to, but that hasn’t been a thing i recall in the last 20 years at least.

Is this sarcasm?

Dri Archer 2014
Chris Rainey 2012

it’s not sarcasm, i don’t think Archer had a single career snap on a 3rd down (100% of his career receptions and carries are on 1st and 2nd downs) so i have no earthly idea how anyone could refer to him as a ‘3rd down back’.

[Ice]

Honestly, I was thinking more about the "type" they have a minor fetish with, rather than career usage totals. Impressive you either dug up or (even more impressively) remembered those numbers on Archer, though!

[Scunge]

I didn't want Najee Harris but instead thought Javonte Williams was going to be the better RB. But now Williams has blown out his knee and who knows how he comes back from that.

What I saw down the stretch of 2022 with Harris was a RB who finally was clicking with the O-line, was reading his blockers better, was making himself skinny through holes, was showing more subtle moves and using more power at times to overwhelm tacklers.

I am tired of the old argument that you don't spend a first round pick on a RB. I think that is one position THAT CALLS for doing just that. That is one position that you need a young player to come in and be ready to play from day one. Not have some player that has to build up his body, not some player that has to learn how to catch passes, not some player that has to learn how to pass protect.

Harris came into the NFL an overaged player, he also was physically mature, maxed out. He didn't have to learn how to catch, how to pass protect, how to secure the football.

There is great value in spending a late first round pick (24th overall) on a ready made NFL starter. And for those that think Jaylin Warren can be the #1 RB and handle the load, really?? And that Warren can be secure with the football with a much more increased workload??

I view Harris as having a similar career to a Matt Forte. Harris is chunkier, about 20 pounds heavier than Forte, and Forte was faster, but I think their playing styles are similar. Not a lot of flash or sizzle. Forte was no slouch, he had almost 9,800 yards rushing, over 14,000 combined yards and 75 TDs for the Bears.

I look at teams, our team, spend 1st round picks and some don't pan out. But you spend a 1st round pick on a RB who might string together 5 straight 1,000+ yards seasons, perhaps have 5,500-6000 yards rushing, 250 catches, score 50 TDs at the end of those 5 years? And have a fumble rate of only say, once every 230 times he touches the ball? How is spending a later 1st round pick (24th overall) not worth it if you get that type of return?? From day one??

Now yes, Batman needs a Robin. Even Chubb had his Hunt, and with Harris we found a perfect compliment in Warren.

When you look at Hunt's time in Cleveland he played in 49 games and in terms of a per game basis, if you project what he did over the course of a season, he had 600+ yards rushing and caught 45 passes. He averaged 38 yards per game and 2.7 catches per game as the #2 RB to Chubb.

Jaylen Warren can do the same I feel. He can spell Harris to keep him fresh, but also provide a change of pace.

To look back at Cleveland, with the rationale of so desperately needing a 3rd RB, who were the RBs behind Chubb and Hunt?

Jerome Ford and D'Ernest Johnson were the other RBs on the roster. They had a combined 49 offensive snaps and between the two of them had 12 carries and 3 catches.

Saying you need to have a viable 3rd RB, saying that you need to depend on that 3rd RB if you run so much, is not necessarily true. If you have a great 1-2 tandem like Chubb and Hunt, or like Harris and Warren, there simply is not any snaps to give to a 3rd RB.

And I think the Steelers have big plans for Connor Heyward as the new Fullback, I have thought long and hard on this but when was the last time we had a 5'11 230 pound Fullback who had a real knack as a pass catcher?? John L Williams. Why can't Connor be that fullback, H-Back, and bring back some versatility to the position?

Again, Harris, Warren, Heyward, I don't see how that 3rd RB, scratch that, 4th RB gets any playing time at all. I view that last RB, whoever it ends up being, as one of the players that is used to do maneuvers throughout the season. You now what I mean, a player is coming back from injury, you need to cut a player to make room and so that 4th RB gets chopped. Later on he is picked up, or we promote somebody from the practice squad. To me that 4th RB doesn't keep me up at night and I doubt it does for the Steelers either.

[Mick]

I guess there are two different discussions for that, one is for taking Najee specifically, who i wasn’t a fan of, and the second is generally taking RBs in the 1st round.

For the second, one way I would look at it generically would be comparing taking RB in round 1 and OL in round 2 vs the other way around, OL in round 1 and an RB in round 2. For me, i would strongly prefer OL in round 1/rb round 2, as having the better offensive line is going to help that RB anyway, help your other RBs as well, and also help on every pass play.

Of course i would take a Barkley or Robinson if they fell in the 1st, but replacement level for RB is really, really high and the RBs taken in the 2nd round have been great in recent years, so you’d need to see an RB in the 1st that was truly an exceptional talent - not just ‘top player on the board’ - to get consideration from me.

[DP39]

I view Harris as having a similar career to a Matt Forte. Harris is chunkier, about 20 pounds heavier than Forte, and Forte was faster, but I think their playing styles are similar. Not a lot of flash or sizzle. Forte was no slouch, he had almost 9,800 yards rushing, over 14,000 combined yards and 75 TDs for the Bears.

I can only dream Naj has the career and averages Forte had. I know you're really only comparing their careers, but the only thing I see them having in common is their power and MAYBE (if I squint) their hands out of the backfield. I could only wish Naj had the vision and feet that Forte had. I watched A TON of Forte as he was one of my favorite 3 down backs for almost a decade -- especially his 2013 & '14 seasons. Forte's all three -- ELITE vision, speed and feet (6.84 sec. three-cone) were WAY different than what I've seen from Najee so far. Forte was close to a 4.4 40 guy when he hit the afterburners, Najee barely has a second gear, much less afterburners.

Like I said, I can only dream Najee has Forte's career -- especially his availability and 77% career catch number over a decade (and Cutler was far from the most accurate of throwers). I have my doubts, and think he'll be more of a shorter-term player.....say like an Ezekiel Elliott. If true, I just hope we don't pay him C2 money like Zeke.

[Scunge]

Well, for me I never understand how people get themselves all worked up thinking that only certain positions are worthy of being taken in the first round. Or that some positions are easily replaced, filled with later picks.

So, no need to take a WR in the first two rounds because an Antonio Brown in round 6 is available right?

Or no need to take a QB in round 1 because a Tom Brady in round 6 is available right???

When I hear people say hey, look at all of the value in early to mid 2nd round, no need to take a WR in round 1 look at what is going to be there in round 2! And yeah, there have been a lot of RBs in that early 2nd round but I think that has more to say about all of the lame teams in the back third of round 1 that were too chicken shit to get a great RB.

For me, once you get past the top 10-12 picks, the true blue chip prospects, the REAL first round picks, then you are left with the other 38 remaining players that can go in round 1.

That may sound crazy to some, but I think there are 50 players each and every draft season that have a real chance of going in round 1. Those 38 players can go from pick 13 to pick 32, but only 20 out of the 38 become first rounders, the remaining end up taken in round 2 and some will fall to round 3, 4 even later. Teams widely disagree on players, how they specifically fit their scheme, their needs, etc.

And when you factor in that the Steelers have averaged the past 20 years under Colbert something like pick 23?? If we had taken Harris with the 4th overall pick I would have been livid. If we had taken Terrell Edmunds with the 7th overall pick I would have shit my pants. With where we usually pick, I am mostly fine with who we draft for the most part.

[Scunge]

I view Harris as having a similar career to a Matt Forte. Harris is chunkier, about 20 pounds heavier than Forte, and Forte was faster, but I think their playing styles are similar. Not a lot of flash or sizzle. Forte was no slouch, he had almost 9,800 yards rushing, over 14,000 combined yards and 75 TDs for the Bears.

I can only dream Naj has the career and averages Forte had. I know you're really only comparing their careers, but the only thing I see them having in common is their power and MAYBE (if I squint) their hands out of the backfield. I could only wish Naj had the vision and feet that Forte had. I watched A TON of Forte as he was one of my favorite 3 down backs for almost a decade -- especially his 2013 & '14 seasons. Forte's all three -- ELITE vision, speed and feet (6.84 sec. three-cone) were WAY different than what I've seen from Najee so far. Forte was close to a 4.4 40 guy when he hit the afterburners, Najee barely has a second gear, much less afterburners.

Like I said, I can only dream Najee has Forte's career -- especially his availability and 77% career catch number over a decade (and Cutler was far from the most accurate of throwers). I have my doubts, and think he'll be more of a shorter-term player.....say like an Ezekiel Elliott. If true, I just hope we don't pay him C2 money like Zeke.

I enjoyed watching Forte but he was a lot more stiff than people think. He was a very upright runner and he didn't do many fancy moves in the open field, he would put his foot down, make a cut and run north and south. That may sound negative but it is not, he was a very economical runner. And he ran behind good offensive lines. In my comparison, if you put 20 pounds on a 220 pound Forte, I think you have a 240 pound Najee Harris. Harris even at a bigger size, shows fine hands, can effortlessly make difficult catches. He has nimbleness, he simply is not a Leveon Bell who can start, stop and make people look silly. Forte didn't really do that either, he had his style where he pared it down to the barest of essentials.

Now yes, Najee tries to do too much in being fancy, juking, hurdling, but as I said earlier, the second half he was being more economical, running with more instincts, paring down, pruning down, stripping down to the basics of what you need to be successful.

No, I do not think Harris is special in the sense that he will have a Hall of Fame career, but does that mean he can't help this team win, be successful, win a championship???

There are a lot of great names that we can mention that had great NFL careers but might never make it to the Hall. Matt Forte, Eddie George, Steven Jackson, Corey Dillon, etc.

I can't quite put my finger on it but the second half of the season, it was more than just Harris being healthy, more than just the O-line playing better. It was almost as if Eddie Faulkner and Tomlin gave Harris tons of tape on big backs, the Steven Jacksons, etc. and told him to strip everything down. As if he finally realized how a 244 pound back should run.

[DP39]

I view Harris as having a similar career to a Matt Forte. Harris is chunkier, about 20 pounds heavier than Forte, and Forte was faster, but I think their playing styles are similar. Not a lot of flash or sizzle. Forte was no slouch, he had almost 9,800 yards rushing, over 14,000 combined yards and 75 TDs for the Bears.

I can only dream Naj has the career and averages Forte had. I know you're really only comparing their careers, but the only thing I see them having in common is their power and MAYBE (if I squint) their hands out of the backfield. I could only wish Naj had the vision and feet that Forte had. I watched A TON of Forte as he was one of my favorite 3 down backs for almost a decade -- especially his 2013 & '14 seasons. Forte's all three -- ELITE vision, speed and feet (6.84 sec. three-cone) were WAY different than what I've seen from Najee so far. Forte was close to a 4.4 40 guy when he hit the afterburners, Najee barely has a second gear, much less afterburners.

Like I said, I can only dream Najee has Forte's career -- especially his availability and 77% career catch number over a decade (and Cutler was far from the most accurate of throwers). I have my doubts, and think he'll be more of a shorter-term player.....say like an Ezekiel Elliott. If true, I just hope we don't pay him C2 money like Zeke.

I enjoyed watching Forte but he was a lot more stiff than people think. He was a very upright runner and he didn't do many fancy moves in the open field, he would put his foot down, make a cut and run north and south. That may sound negative but it is not, he was a very economical runner. And he ran behind good offensive lines. In my comparison, if you put 20 pounds on a 220 pound Forte, I think you have a 240 pound Najee Harris.

He was very efficient, though you and I remember Forte differently (or our eyes saw something different), I guess. Taller (above 6'1") RBs that lay down a 6.84 sec. three-cone are anything but stiff. It's actually what I though made him great. For a taller RB he had the ability to sink his hips and explode on a cut about as good as anyone his size. I just don't see that in Najee (talk about a stiff, upright runner).

Case in point:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1u26FdPhGw

[SteelerDayTrader]

- Smart teams try not to spend big draft capital on the RB unit. It’s very very rare there is truly 1st round impact talent at RB

- When was the last time a heavy run focused team won a Lombardi ?? The Ravens with Jamaal Lewis circa 2000 ish ?? But they had one of the best defenses ever and exceptional STs.

- I like Najee. Good football player. The Steelers were forced to take him in the 1st. Why ?? Because as per usual with this team their RB unit at the time was like 1 untalented guy and little else and they HAD to have a guy who could step in right away

- Good teams try to never let a situation like that ^^^^ happen. They keep the RB unit stocked with multiple guys who can contribute 5-15 ish quality touches a game and therefore they always have freedom to bargain shop for RBs

- Good teams try to distribute touches. Particularly at the RB position. It keeps the RBs healthy and fresh. You wanna know why teams can often run on the Steelers late ? Because they didn’t spend all game bashing one guy straight ahead. They distributed touches

Harris and Warren are good. I like both. They would both be a lot better if the Steelers had a 3rd guy to divvy up touches with

[Steeldrama]

Lack of day 3 draft capital and cheap ass Rooney not allowing scouts to sign their UDFA hidden gems going to bite this team in the ass

Special teams play being phased out of the great game of football lessens my usual interest in the bottom of the roster types.

Still,
The modern athlete is beyond fragile
Depth at all positions the key to winning not just in the NFL but all professional sports leagues

Benny Snell or Ant Macfarland are fine as a the #3 rb

I think Najee and Warren a helluva duo
Their production and HEALTH the key to the season

[stillthere]

Steelers kicking around ways to get RB Jaylen Warren on field with Najee Harris

https://theathletic.com/4557904/2023/05 ... ee-harris/

“They have said they are planning to find ways to get us both on the field at the same time and just do different things with me,” Warren said. “Najee is still the starter and whenever he needs a break is when I will go in, but we might mix things up some. I just want to help the team any way I can. Whatever that takes I’m willing to do.”

I am all for as many different looks and formations for defenses to worry about and future opponents needing to game plan for.
The PS offense has been so simple and easy to plan and prepare for.

Pickens, DJ, Robinson, Austin, Mooth, Washington, Najeh, Warren, Gentry, Heyward.......lots of different options and formations

22 personnel with Harris, Warren, Pickens, Muuth, & Washington
even 23 with the backs and Gentry, Muuth & Washington should be unstoppable for a yard to go situations.

[stillthere]

McFarland going into his 4th year has shown nothing to warrant another year at #3.

DK said last night at least Benny Snell is a good special teams player. McFarland has only gotten a hat like 14 times in 3 years and I agree.

[stillthere]

Outside of Pickett and Pickens, JW is probably the guy I'm most excited to see what he does. I'm not convinced he isn't already the best RB on the team.

I like Little Heyward, too. I think he's just a football player, and one that they need to get on the field more.

Yup.
Small sample last year,
But seems like he could be that sneaky type....one play a game, on a big 3rd down play.....type of secret weapon.

At 6'-0" and 230....and 4.72 40...........he is certainly TE #4...
May be more football quick than his 40 indicates.

Hence he needs to be a jack of all trades. ST's H-back, Full back,
And we know football is in his blood with Ironhead, Cam.

2022 12 catches-151 yards 12.6 avg 1 TD, 2 carries - 27 yards.

Actually played a bit more than I thought.
Played in all 17 games. 174 snaps on offense - 10 per game.
282 STs snaps.

With D Washington on board now, he may not see as many snaps at TE.

I know he was doing some H-back stuff last week as well as some FB sets but special teams is his bread and butter for now when it comes to Conner H.

[stillthere]

Hence he needs to be a jack of all trades.

Jack of all trades, master of none. . .

???

I think he means more along the lines of a 5 tool player in baseball terms.

[Kodiak.]

DK said last night at least Benny Snell is a good special teams player. McFarland has only gotten a hat like 14 times in 3 years and I agree.

If Benny Snell is a decent ST player, then by all means...

But as mentioned, you absolutely need 2 backs. And, really, that 3rd back is [or should be] relatively equal to a 4th receiver in terms of value. Likely to have to take significant reps in a few games for injury, and might also get a handful of snaps per game for different packages or to give someone a rest.

And I don't think Benny Snell is good enough to be that #3 back. As a 4th back, sure. But, also, maybe Heyward is really the #3 back simply because he can do so much it's not a tip-off when he's in there.

[stillthere]

DK said last night at least Benny Snell is a good special teams player. McFarland has only gotten a hat like 14 times in 3 years and I agree.

If Benny Snell is a decent ST player, then by all means...

But as mentioned, you absolutely need 2 backs. And, really, that 3rd back is [or should be] relatively equal to a 4th receiver in terms of value. Likely to have to take significant reps in a few games for injury, and might also get a handful of snaps per game for different packages or to give someone a rest.

And I don't think Benny Snell is good enough to be that #3 back. As a 4th back, sure. But, also, maybe Heyward is really the #3 back simply because he can do so much it's not a tip-off when he's in there.

He may not be, I am just pointing out that he at least brings special teams reliability to the table over McFarland who does not even do that.

[steelmann58]

Who is going to be that 3rd RB and what is needed at that spot.

[955876]

Hence he needs to be a jack of all trades.

Jack of all trades, master of none. . .

???

I think he means more along the lines of a 5 tool player in baseball terms.

I don’t think those things are the same. Jack of all trades can fill in multiple places.

A 5 tool player in baseball excels at 5 things.

If you had that in a RB in football he wouldn’t be your 3rd or 4th stringer.

He’d be your starter and a damn good one. That guy would have not only size but also speed. He’d be able to block and catch. And do those all at a high level. We’d have to throw in something else to make it 5.

You can hand the ball off to Connor Heyward here and there. You can ask him to block some. You can throw him the ball.

He will be capable at those things. However, can you really feature him as a centerpiece of your offense and make him the focal point?

Hardly.

5 tool players in baseball are guys without a weakness physically in 5 areas.

It’s really not the same.

[Jobu]

But, also, maybe Heyward is really the #3 back simply because he can do so much it's not a tip-off when he's in there.

But what exactly can he do? He’s a failed college RB, a failed college FB, probably couldn’t block Rosie O’ Donnell. He’s adequate at catching out of the backfield…that’s it. There isn’t a DC in the league spending 10 seconds of their game plan on Conner Heyward.
Ask yourself this…in any situation, which Steelers WR, TE, or RB are you pulling off the field to feature Conner Heyward?

[stillthere]

But, also, maybe Heyward is really the #3 back simply because he can do so much it's not a tip-off when he's in there.

But what exactly can he do? He’s a failed college RB, a failed college FB, probably couldn’t block Rosie O’ Donnell. He’s adequate at catching out of the backfield…that’s it. There isn’t a DC in the league spending 10 seconds of their game plan on Conner Heyward.
Ask yourself this…in any situation, which Steelers WR, TE, or RB are you pulling off the field to feature Conner Heyward?

Just being able to be versatile is the key when he comes on the field is he a slot/TE/FB? The D has to bring in personnel to what they think.
You then move those pieces to places that stress a player on D. If the D brings in an extra DL assuming he is FB and should be behind the QB and when they line up you motion him to the slot he probably has a mismatch on a ILB in space. Similar thoughts with Darnell Washington and Muuth.

With all the different pieces the team has assembled if they play to their potential and ability. This team is going to stress a lot of Ds. Speed and size in all different forms across the skill positions. I bet you are a Heyward fan by the end of the season and won't be referring to the kid as a failure who could not block that space pig.

[Kodiak.]

There isn’t a DC in the league spending 10 seconds of their game plan on Conner Heyward.
Ask yourself this…in any situation, which Steelers WR, TE, or RB are you pulling off the field to feature Conner Heyward?

His efficiency last year was excellent. OK, so he caught people sleeping - well, that's sort of the opposite of being able to be ignored. And that was my point - he's effective at a lot of things, and has to be accounted for. A DC can't play 11 on 10 because Conner will burn them.

Benny Snell, yeah, him you can play 11 on 10.

[yygy]

Steelers need to stretch the field. They gotta get pickens ca3 and dj down the field. Get the safeties and lb thinking coverage. How about getting Naj to the second level untouched?

Put 15-17 280+ pound guys in the middle of the field nobody is running through that. Reminds me of willie Parker saying shoot I run into 11 in the box.

I’ll say one of the reasons for the improved run game the sides better health from Naj and improved oh line is having Pickett’s arm. He backed off the ratbirds safeties all game.

Comments from Pickens are the new O mantra is looking at first down as a key opportunity.

They got the qb they got the wr (let’s hope). Attack down the field

[955876]

Having the tools is one thing. Having a carpenter willing to pound the nail is another.


Do what we do.

Like most, I’m hoping for the best and a more aggressive approach now that KP isn’t so green.

If they treat him like an infant again this year I might drive to Pittsburgh and dispose of Jibbs and Oh Canada myself.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Benny Snell or Ant Macfarland are fine as a the #3 rb

Not sure it’s possible for me to disagree more

[Steeldrama]

Benny Snell or Ant Macfarland are fine as a the #3 rb

Not sure it’s possible for me to disagree more
[/

[SteelerDayTrader]

I like Connor Heyward a lot. I want him on my team somewhere.

He hasn’t ever shown the ability to be exclusively a 3rd RB

Not saying he couldn’t get some touches in a pinch but he has yet to show he’s a solid RB in all phases

[SteelerDayTrader]

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