Conner vs Bell

[zeke5123]

Remember when people were enamored with Isaac Redman? KC had such a hard on for him (but only because KC loved Willie Parker, and therefore hated Mendenhall, and so he championed Redman as a Mendenhall replacement. And he only liked Willie Parker because IC liked Bettis, and then IC liked Mendenhall because KC liked Willie Parker, and around and around we went. Kudos if you kept up with that. But that's how it actually went down.), other posters named their screen monikers after him, and the true yinzers considered him the second coming of Jerome Bettis. With the benefit of hindsight, how do those opinions look now? I think the effusive praise being lavished upon Conner will age just as well.

As others have said, Conner is a good, blue collar runner, and he's got some talent. I am NOT comparing him to Isaac Redman. He doesn't belong in the same sentence as Redman, just as he doesn't belong in the same sentence as Bell. He would do well in a RB by committee role, with a speedster and a blocking back to take some snaps from him. I do think Tomlin is stubborn and stuck in his ways and, though he's talked the talk about a committee approach to the position, he's never demonstrated a willingness to do so.

That's how shit works around here. According to a dozen posters, Matthew Thomas, the undrafted rookie ILB is the key to turning this defense into the 85 Bears.

Talk about an overstatement. We think Matthew Thomas has the ability to cover TEs. We aren’t saying he is the key or will even be good. We think getting him on the field for passing downs would help the Steelers defense. If the coaching allows the offense to attack, the defense only needs to be average.

[Legacy User]

Remember when people were enamored with Isaac Redman? KC had such a hard on for him (but only because KC loved Willie Parker, and therefore hated Mendenhall, and so he championed Redman as a Mendenhall replacement. And he only liked Willie Parker because IC liked Bettis, and then IC liked Mendenhall because KC liked Willie Parker, and around and around we went. Kudos if you kept up with that. But that's how it actually went down.), other posters named their screen monikers after him, and the true yinzers considered him the second coming of Jerome Bettis. With the benefit of hindsight, how do those opinions look now? I think the effusive praise being lavished upon Conner will age just as well.

As others have said, Conner is a good, blue collar runner, and he's got some talent. I am NOT comparing him to Isaac Redman. He doesn't belong in the same sentence as Redman, just as he doesn't belong in the same sentence as Bell. He would do well in a RB by committee role, with a speedster and a blocking back to take some snaps from him. I do think Tomlin is stubborn and stuck in his ways and, though he's talked the talk about a committee approach to the position, he's never demonstrated a willingness to do so.

That's how shit works around here. According to a dozen posters, Matthew Thomas, the undrafted rookie ILB is the key to turning this defense into the 85 Bears.

Talk about an overstatement. We think Matthew Thomas has the ability to cover TEs. We aren’t saying he is the key or will even be good. We think getting him on the field for passing downs would help the Steelers defense. If the coaching allows the offense to attack, the defense only needs to be average.

$ well said

[DP39]

“Conner is one tough SOB brother”, says The Hulkster

End of thread!

This explains why Fitz did his best Hulk imitation after throwing the 4th quarter TD to Evans. I didn't realize The Hulkster was in attendance.

Thanks, makes sense now.

[franco32]

I'm not interested in comparing Conner to 2015 Bell. That simply isn't accurate. We have to judge present day resources with present day info. The info we have shows that Bell is a player in decline.

I've said this on many occasions but it is worth repeating. Feeding Bell the ball puts us in a lot of 3rd down situations. His ypc and yac have fallen so much that we would constantly be in 3rd downs after feeding Bell the ball on early downs. The more third downs you have, the more your offense has to be perfect to score points.

Our goal should be to score a ton of points, be efficient in the red zone, and win games. It should not be getting Bell the ball.

James Conner's style of bursting quickly through a hole or getting North/South with speed after the catch...that's been fantastic for this offense. No one is saying he's an all-pro. But frankly Bell isn't an all-pro anymore either and he costs 15 million.

The combination of Bell's decline and the over-reliance on him by Tomlin were a huge handicap for this team. This hold out could be a blessing in disguise.

[bradshaw2ben]

Even using 2017 numbers, Bell was 7.9% better than average RB as a runner, but not as effective as a receiver compared to average as Conner is this year.

For example, in 2017:

Alvin Kamara was 44.5% better than average as a runner & 36.4% better than average as a receiver
Le'Veon Bell was 7.9% better than average as a runner & 2.5% better than average as a receiver

[Legacy User]

I'm not interested in comparing Conner to 2015 Bell. That simply isn't accurate. We have to judge present day resources with present day info. The info we have shows that Bell is a player in decline.

I've said this on many occasions but it is worth repeating. Feeding Bell the ball puts us in a lot of 3rd down situations. His ypc and yac have fallen so much that we would constantly be in 3rd downs after feeding Bell the ball on early downs. The more third downs you have, the more your offense has to be perfect to score points.

Our goal should be to score a ton of points, be efficient in the red zone, and win games. It should not be getting Bell the ball.

James Conner's style of bursting quickly through a hole or getting North/South with speed after the catch...that's been fantastic for this offense. No one is saying he's an all-pro. But frankly Bell isn't an all-pro anymore either and he costs 15 million.

The combination of Bell's decline and the over-reliance on him by Tomlin were a huge handicap for this team. This hold out could be a blessing in disguise.

I can't stand Bell as a person and am thrilled he isn't on the team anymore. But to be fair, in his defense, no one knows if he does or does not have the ability at this stage to be an all-pro. He might be physically and mentally ready RIGHT NOW to put up 2015 numbers. We just don't know.

But what we DO KNOW is that this offense is just as good, just as capable, and even more productive WITHOUT him. And that is with only JC or a platoon of rb's. Bell would not have saved us from a tie in Cleveland. His presence on the field would not have delivered a W against KC. And he would not have made the game against the Bucs a laugher.

We don't need him. We're better without him. And James Conner is a small part of why that is true.

[bradshaw2ben]

Conner is a JAG, with a great story, dependability, and a great heart. Steelers can be effective with him to a point, but my guess is his limitations will show more the longer the season goes on. This week will be an interesting test.

[Havoc]

Conner is a JAG, with a great story, dependability, and a great heart. Steelers can be effective with him to a point, but my guess is his limitations will show more the longer the season goes on. This week will be an interesting test.

He could be our Mark van Eeghen

We need to not wear him down over the course of the season. Be creative, rotate in the other backs.

I could see it going the opposite direction... AB/JuJu/McDonald/Washington draw so much attention it creates space for Conner to gash defenses in the passing game.

[Legacy User]

Conner is a JAG, with a great story, dependability, and a great heart. Steelers can be effective with him to a point, but my guess is his limitations will show more the longer the season goes on. This week will be an interesting test.

Yeah, you're probably right. He got drafted by the Steelers' PR department because of his story. His "limitations" were too great for him to make the team like the rest of the athletes.

"He has been a great surprise to all of us because we were told his presence was only to make our organization look altruistic and caring. I had no idea he could actually run the ball." Mike Tomlin

"The success of James Conner has prompted us to consider the second Rooney Rule where unskilled athletes with no proven track record can be placed on NFL rosters based solely on their ability to overcome adversity." Art Rooney II

[DP39]

Conner is a JAG, with a great story, dependability, and a great heart. Steelers can be effective with him to a point, but my guess is his limitations will show more the longer the season goes on. This week will be an interesting test.

B2b, I agree that Conner isn't as talented as Bell yet and may never be. But, would you rather have Bell and all that comes with him - including the headaches - or Conner and $15M to use towards other players that can help us in the future (or maybe this year - come on Earl Thomas)?

Right now, is there a team in the league paying a Franchise QB, WR AND RB (not to mention Top G and C $)? Not sure it can happen and still have anything but a zero talent D.

[Ice]

I still feel that we should probably give the kid more than 3 starts before we start hanging labels like JAG on the kid. Last year was pretty much a redshirt, and he's improved.

Since when is three starts the standard by which we pass judgement on a player? We're still "waiting" on Bud Dupree, and how many years has it been? Sheesh.

[Havoc]

Here is a thought... (I'm not calling Conner a JAG)

Not all JAGS are equal. Some do 1 thing well and if put in the right role, help you win. Rocky Bleier is a good example.

I see real potential over the course of the season with Conner in this offense in the passing game (not talking pass pro here).

Gotta love Conner's hands in the receiving game. Gotta love the ferociousness. Dude has a will of Steel.

It could be, that Conner's skillset turns out to be a good fit for the current personnel on this offense.

[Legacy User]

Real tragedy to me is the team couldn’t have had it both ways. Get bell back to play, even for just one year more, AND open up the offense.

Like AB said, everybody can eat.

Steelers assembled what could have been the best offense ever put together, with Juju and McDonald. But their stubborn ass ways of shortening the game, establishing the run, protecting the D sabotaged their own potential to win every shootout.

That’s ultimately the biggest tomlin failure

[bradshaw2ben]

Conner is a JAG, with a great story, dependability, and a great heart. Steelers can be effective with him to a point, but my guess is his limitations will show more the longer the season goes on. This week will be an interesting test.

B2b, I agree that Conner isn't as talented as Bell yet and may never be. But, would you rather have Bell and all that comes with him - including the headaches - or Conner and $15M to use towards other players that can help us in the future (or maybe this year - come on Earl Thomas)?

Right now, is there a team in the league paying a Franchise QB, WR AND RB (not to mention Top G and C $)? Not sure it can happen and still have anything but a zero talent D.

Of course, I'd rather have Earl Thomas.

[bradshaw2ben]

I still feel that we should probably give the kid more than 3 starts before we start hanging labels like JAG on the kid. Last year was pretty much a redshirt, and he's improved.

Since when is three starts the standard by which we pass judgement on a player? We're still "waiting" on Bud Dupree, and how many years has it been? Sheesh.

His workouts: bad
His rookie season: poor vision, poor blocking, lack of make-you-miss, goes down easily, got hurt
His second season: vision is still not great, is better in pass pro, made large strides as a receiver, still a pedestrian runner who benefits from decent blocking.

Is he a bad player? No.
Can they win with him? Sure
Is he replaceable? Yes, especially as a runner.

I'm giving you my take: he will appear less attractive the longer he starts.

It's early in his career but RBs usually show early, just like QBs.

[Ice]

I have to admit, I hope you're wrong. I'll hold out faith based on the fact that a certain current hold out back didn't have a stellar combine (and hadn't recently beaten cancer as an excuse), and through his first five games (I'm counting the ridiculously paltry amount of work Conner was given his rookie season about two typical Steeler RB games), I'm not sure we were all sold on Bell, either.

Some more rest, work in Ridley and Samuels a little, some continued improvement now that the game experience is really coming, and I don't think it's a position of weakness.

[Steelafan77]

I agree Ice. Ridley needs to see more snaps than ST's reps. IMHO Ridley looked real good spelling Conner for a few snaps in last game. I too am a firm believer in the running game by committee. I'm most reminded of the Bettis and Parker duo....

[Legacy User]

Remember when people were enamored with Isaac Redman? KC had such a hard on for him (but only because KC loved Willie Parker, and therefore hated Mendenhall, and so he championed Redman as a Mendenhall replacement. And he only liked Willie Parker because IC liked Bettis, and then IC liked Mendenhall because KC liked Willie Parker, and around and around we went. Kudos if you kept up with that. But that's how it actually went down.), other posters named their screen monikers after him, and the true yinzers considered him the second coming of Jerome Bettis. With the benefit of hindsight, how do those opinions look now? I think the effusive praise being lavished upon Conner will age just as well.

As others have said, Conner is a good, blue collar runner, and he's got some talent. I am NOT comparing him to Isaac Redman. He doesn't belong in the same sentence as Redman, just as he doesn't belong in the same sentence as Bell. He would do well in a RB by committee role, with a speedster and a blocking back to take some snaps from him. I do think Tomlin is stubborn and stuck in his ways and, though he's talked the talk about a committee approach to the position, he's never demonstrated a willingness to do so.

But Mendy, Redman, Parker, Bettis had a better O-line than we do now, even without the injury to Decastro. When healthy and prepared, our line is above average. Right now, they are a mess.

Here's another point about JC's blocking vs. Bell. Bell had a better line in front of him, lessening his role as a blocker. If all you end up doing is chipping an end so you can skip out into the flat and pad your stats, you'll look like a great blocker as well. JC, on the other hand, is taking on free runners, stunters not picked up, and linemen pushing Alejandro back into Ben's pocket. I'm not saying he's better than Bell at blocking, but I feel like he's having to do far more than Bell ever did to keep Ben upright.

On what planet are you living that you think our line is worse now than it was in 2006-2011? Is that a serious statement?

[Legacy User]

Remember when people were enamored with Isaac Redman? KC had such a hard on for him (but only because KC loved Willie Parker, and therefore hated Mendenhall, and so he championed Redman as a Mendenhall replacement. And he only liked Willie Parker because IC liked Bettis, and then IC liked Mendenhall because KC liked Willie Parker, and around and around we went. Kudos if you kept up with that. But that's how it actually went down.), other posters named their screen monikers after him, and the true yinzers considered him the second coming of Jerome Bettis. With the benefit of hindsight, how do those opinions look now? I think the effusive praise being lavished upon Conner will age just as well.

As others have said, Conner is a good, blue collar runner, and he's got some talent. I am NOT comparing him to Isaac Redman. He doesn't belong in the same sentence as Redman, just as he doesn't belong in the same sentence as Bell. He would do well in a RB by committee role, with a speedster and a blocking back to take some snaps from him. I do think Tomlin is stubborn and stuck in his ways and, though he's talked the talk about a committee approach to the position, he's never demonstrated a willingness to do so.

That's how shit works around here. According to a dozen posters, Matthew Thomas, the undrafted rookie ILB is the key to turning this defense into the 85 Bears.

To be fair, you thought/think that Matakevich is a more than a fringe NFL player and could be a potential starter.

[Ice]

I agree Ice. Ridley needs to see more snaps than ST's reps. IMHO Ridley looked real good spelling Conner for a few snaps in last game. I too am a firm believer in the running game by committee. I'm most reminded of the Bettis and Parker duo....

And Conner can benefit from coming to the sidelines, watching the vet take the snaps, make the cuts and follow the blocks for a series, then go in next drive and apply what he's seen in-game. Everyone wins. Parker credited being able to split time with Jerome as a huge plus in the developing stages of his career.

[Scunge]

I am one that believes our O-line is quickly declining. Our super sub went to Cleveland. Gilbert I believe is in his last season, I think the Steelers will move on from after this season. Be it by trade or just cutting him I think he is playing his last season, his dead cap hit for 2019 would only be some $900,000. Colbert might be able to trade him. I think the Steelers are tired of his injuries and the PED suspension and him grumbling about wanting more money.

Foster is not the same, the player being groomed to replace him, BJ Finney, is not going to be an answer, I think he is strictly a backup. Pouncey is getting pushed around more and more in pass protection. Big Al too often to my eye gets pushed around too, and he is not that good of a run blocker. Munchak is doing the best he can with what he has, but he needs some high draft picks to rebuild this line. Chuks was a great start to that goal, they need to spend a 1st or 2nd soon to continue the reconstruction of our O-line.

I think that DeCastro and the rookie Chuks are the two building blocks that we have for a great line but the other 3 players will need replacing and you may see 2 of those 3 players gone by 2020.

Even if Bell had signed that $70 million contract he would be struggling behind this O-line. I know that I have been dissing Bell for declining but the O-line has played its part too.

I am amazed that more people are not critical of this O-line. I don't think that Big Al was a Pro Bowler last season, I think that he was a popular, feel good, PR vote. I don't think of him as an elite LT who can shut down a top pass rusher. Pouncey, when he doesn't have DeCastro next to him, man he looks very, very ordinary, looks and plays like a JAG.

[Legacy User]

I've seen so many conflicting arguments.

The O-Line is the reason Bell was so successful! We don't need talent like him to be productive.

The O-Line is old, slow, and done! That's why Conner is struggling. Bell wouldn't fare any better.

I'm going to compare 3-game starter James Conner to a starting running back on a Super Bowl team, and claim that the o-line we have now is worse than Max Starks, Chris Kemoeatu, Justin Hartwig, Darnell Stapleton, and WIllie Colon. Now those guys could block!

Like what the fuck, people.

[Ice]

I mean, once it gets past ten pages...

[stillthere]

and what I see of Ridley theres no reason not to see him more in every game. fresh legs!!!

Even if the staff doesn't have the brains to negotiate sharing carries in-game, they could go with Ridley one game and Conner the next if they wanted.

As a post-script, I really think featuring Conner like they did against the Broons was an intentional fuck you to Bell, that likely cost the W.

Are you seriously saying that it was featuring JC that cost us the game?

Seriously.

Seriously?

Bruh.

Seriously?

Just stop.

Seriously.

I don't think it was using Conner who was running well but not getting another player a rush (sans 1 by switzer) was bad game planning. I also think it was a fuck you to Bell and it did help bite this team in the ass. He was gassed in the 4th quarter while the Browns were stacking the box. A series off in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd may have had him in a better way in the 4th. Who knows maybe Ridley breaks off a run or turns a short dump off to a fairly big play.

[strom detmer]

around 11:06 in the 4th qtr the Bucs scored to "make it a game" and cut the lead to like 10 or so, normally (93-2004) we would win this game like 110 times out of 111. We would often relax at the bar and look for single mother's who had cropped their Ham jersey or begin inventing different things to put on our sandwich that we were going to throw at whatever asshole had either clevelend or cincy colored jams on. We were confident and relaxed we would win because ten or eleven resident maniacs on the offense would start "imposing their wills" on a defense that was putting like 14 or 15 "in the box. " All the while another even more maniacal local hero with thighs so thick they often affected the moon's orbit would just paste the ball to his chest and mercilessly inflict legal pain on everything in between him and the first down marker. Those days were awesome, single mother's were not addicted to opiates yet so they still dug sex, sandwiches had little or no regulation in allegheny county and could often be launched at speeds over 760 fps, 780 if you pumped your wrist rocket ten times. Then Bettis fucking fumbled on the goal line against fucking the best team we ever beat in the playoffs before we had beaten them and totally smashed our idiom, hence forth we have relied on gut wrenching comebacks, miracle 4th quarter drives, a ludicrously dominant huge world class quarterback with a gravity defying arm and ridiculous chinese acrobats disguised as cheetah fast wide outs who love to look at themselves on Twitter and all 26 sports centers each day. We did win a couple Super Bowls but we have all aged horribly. It is my belief that Fichtner at some point, almost started to revive the long lost idiom. Conner can do it, if our defense ever puts three stops in a row together this season, look for it. Conner will do it. Bell, no fucking way. Ask yourself, how old do you want to look at the end of this season? Then Conner is your man and fuck that other guy straight to old looking hell. I gotta lay off the xanax, I really should not be able to type.

[Legacy User]

around 11:06 in the 4th qtr the Bucs scored to "make it a game" and cut the lead to like 10 or so, normally (93-2004) we would win this game like 110 times out of 111. We would often relax at the bar and look for single mother's who had cropped their Ham jersey or begin inventing different things to put on our sandwich that we were going to throw at whatever asshole had either clevelend or cincy colored jams on. We were confident and relaxed we would win because ten or eleven resident maniacs on the offense would start "imposing their wills" on a defense that was putting like 14 or 15 "in the box. " All the while another even more maniacal local hero with thighs so thick they often affected the moon's orbit would just paste the ball to his chest and mercilessly inflict legal pain on everything in between him and the first down marker. Those days were awesome, single mother's were not addicted to opiates yet so they still dug sex, sandwiches had little or no regulation in allegheny county and could often be launched at speeds over 760 fps, 780 if you pumped your wrist rocket ten times. Then Bettis fucking fumbled on the goal line against fucking the best team we ever beat in the playoffs before we had beaten them and totally smashed our idiom, hence forth we have relied on gut wrenching comebacks, miracle 4th quarter drives, a ludicrously dominant huge world class quarterback with a gravity defying arm and ridiculous chinese acrobats disguised as cheetah fast wide outs who love to look at themselves on Twitter and all 26 sports centers each day. We did win a couple Super Bowls but we have all aged horribly. It is my belief that Fichtner at some point, almost started to revive the long lost idiom. Conner can do it, if our defense ever puts three stops in a row together this season, look for it. Conner will do it. Bell, no fucking way. Ask yourself, how old do you want to look at the end of this season? Then Conner is your man and fuck that other guy straight to old looking hell. I gotta lay off the xanax, I really should not be able to type.

More xanax more xanax! Love this!! Keep up the good work...and I agree, btw.

[Jobu]

Jeez...

[Ice]

Pretty sure a law limiting correctional and/or mental health facility internet access could put a stop to this.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

Pretty sure a law limiting correctional and/or mental health facility internet access could put a stop to this.

It might put a stop to this site! We would lose about 65% of the posters...

[Thrillsseeker]

Pretty sure a law limiting correctional and/or mental health facility internet access could put a stop to this.