Post-WC Game Thoughts

[Legacy User]

This hurts. Badly.

What a season we had.

Franco, I somewhat agree. It seemed that when we had our chances to really make a play for the division, and looked like we were on the verge of doing that, we'd take two steps back, seemingly. Still, it was a very exciting season.

Will we ever get over that hump? Some say the manager, some say the GM, some say the owner. All of them must do a better job, and there is no question of that. That triumvirate got this team over the under .500 20 year drought hump. And made us perennially competitive. All good. But now we need more. From all of them, and the players they bring us and manage for us.

It's clear we are going to need more and better pitching. Will that come from the 3 men we have waiting to move up from the minors, a trade, a FA, or combination, we need someone we can count on in big games. Cole might eventually be that guy, but he's not there yet. Last night, after 3 seasons, he's still not "that guy".

Tough one, sentimentally, because of AJ. Because of the 98 wins. Because of all the dramatic and heart-wrenching moments throughout this roller coaster ride of a season.

We had our chances in this game, like a lot of tough losses we've had this season. We didn't capitalize, though we did hit the ball hard, the Cubs were just in the right places, and made plays when they had to. Arrieta was good, but he was also lucky. But that's the way you have to be sometimes to be as insanely good as he's been this season, particularly over the second half.

NH and his scouting team and The Nut have a lot of work to do in the off-season to see that this team patches the inevitable holes that are to come, and to see that this team has enough talent to get over this damned WC hump.

I refuse to hang my head in shame. I'm proud to be a fan of this team, come hell or high water. I'm NOT happy about losing this game, but I bleed Bucco black and gold, do or die. I'm not sure I can even stomach watching much more of baseball this season though. I'll pay attention, but probably from a distance. I'm ready for 2016. Bring it on.

Let's GO Bucs!

[JackLambert58]

Just not good enough. Again. Really that's my only post-game thought this morning. And I don't know if the Bucs realize that. I don't know if they're going to take the approach next year to get over this hump or simply say, hey we won 98 games so why change anything.

The people I am most disappointed in are in order:

Gerrit Cole (we needed our ace to be better than that! He came up small in the biggest game of the year.)
Starling Marte (absolutely horrible at bats and a rally killer)
Josh Harrison (dropped a great throw from Cervelli which might have saved the run in the 1st inning)

Right now I'm still pissed. Probably not a good time for retrospection.

[Legacy User]

I agree on Marte, Jack. I don't watch many games since I live out of town and I'm too cheap to pony up and pay extra for them, but I cringed when I watched games down the stretch when Marte was batting cleanup. I realize the options are limited when Alvarez and Aram aren't in there, but Marte doesn't seem like a great fit and indeed killed a bunch of solid opportunities in several games over the past month.

I hate the play-in format, mainly because it really emphasizes the ace instead of a solid top-to-bottom team. If you don't have one of the 4 or 5 best pitchers in baseball and the other guy does, your post-season is shot. The only hope you have is to get one of those guys or hope the team you're playing doesn't have one either. Every guy I talked to today that was an LA, NYM, or STL fan was rooting for the Cubs.

Yeah, it's our better team's job to beat the ace, blah blah blah, I get that. But when a guy is historically on the best run ever (and Bumgartner wasn't much worse than that last year), it's a tall order.

If we stay in a division with STL and the Cubs, we need to get ourselves one of those 4 or 5 best pitchers or we're going to be doing this, at best, every year.

[Legacy User]

Hurdle isn't the guy.

[K_C_]

Hurdle isn't the guy.

I think he is, but these are the cards he's been dealt.

One great player and several good ones.

.....and a pitching staff with one real good starter. Not going to anoint him as great yet, maybe in a few years.

But when you look around the league, the Pirates starters are just okay.

Very tough to win consistently with the starting pitching on this roster.

.....and Arrieta is a beast.

[Legacy User]

Just not good enough. Again. Really that's my only post-game thought this morning. And I don't know if the Bucs realize that. I don't know if they're going to take the approach next year to get over this hump or simply say, hey we won 98 games so why change anything.

The people I am most disappointed in are in order:

Gerrit Cole (we needed our ace to be better than that! He came up small in the biggest game of the year.)
Starling Marte (absolutely horrible at bats and a rally killer)
Josh Harrison (dropped a great throw from Cervelli which might have saved the run in the 1st inning)

Right now I'm still pissed. Probably not a good time for retrospection.

JHay also took one for the team to help load the bases in the only real inning where we posed a threat and had Arrieta on the ropes. He stood in on that to get nicked on the shoulder, and wasn't even pissed that he was hit. I am not 100% sure that is called "out" at 2nd on that play you mentioned, it was bang-bang.

I'll add Walker to your Wall of Shame. Burgh guy. Leader. Comes up small time after time in the post-season. Shame on you, Neil.

You might be right about the ownership/front office in terms of their approach. We'll see. I am not sure we'll see much different from them, but if they make the right moves, who knows. I'm going to keep the faith in the team and the guys we put on the field next season.

It's tough when you hold breaths and have mini-heart attacks on every pitch for months, win 98 games, take the division race to the last week, and the home field in the WC to the last inning of the last game. No consolation is possible, really.

We'll live to fight another day, brother.

[jeemie]

Hurdle isn't the guy.

Hurdle was a guy that could get them to stop thinking of themselves as losers.

For that I will be eternally grateful. It's not easy to instill a winning culture in an organization that continually lost for TWO DECADES.

But I agree he is not the man to take this team to the next level. The sense of urgency he tried to instill at the last minute needed to be built up to over the course of the entire season...and his attitude of "no one game is more important than any other game" and a desire to build up everyone on the team from Cutch to Florimon simply precluded him from doing that.

You can't just suddenly "turn on" fundamentals, discipline, and execution. You have to be building it all year long until it peaks come playoff time.

But in the end it doesn't matter. Hurdle is not the biggest "hurdle" to success. Nutting and Neal are because neither are bold enough nor "all in" enough to do what is necessary to go to the next level.

And as long as they have apologists in the press like Rob Rossi, who had the audacity to blame the fans for Nutting's unwillingness to open up, that won't change any time soon (it wouldn't change even without Rossi, but guys like him make it easier for Nutting to rationalize).

[Legacy User]

What a fuckin bummer that was. I don't have the heart to read through the 40 page game thread, but if Cole had shown up even a little and some of those ropes the Bucs hit weren't right at Cubs this game could have been very different. Overall I don't think the Bucs played all that bad. A combination of a shitty Cole, bad luck, and Arrieta was just too much.

I am one of those fans who goes to lots of games and spends money supporting this team. Moving forward, the front office needs to do more. Being over .500 and getting a WCG is no longer good enough. It's time to go get a stud pitcher and probably stud first baseman. If they don't pony up this offseason to be ready to play at a high level in April then my support will fade significantly. I know I am not alone.

Cutch, Polanco, Marte, Kang, Cervelli, JHay, Cole and Frankie are a great core to build around. Maybe we lose some guys like Pedro and Walker. I won't lose any sleep over either. Keep the core intact and add a couple new studs to the mix. Get it done, Nut & Neil.

[Legacy User]

I always laugh when I hear interweb experts talk about a routinely post season coach not being the guy to win a championship. Most post season success comes down to a fair amount of luck. You have to get there for it to have a possibility for it to happen

[Legacy User]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

[Legacy User]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

I buy all of this.

Of course I'm disappointed in how things ended but I am not mad at the team. I do think more needs to be done this offseason. Time to make a couple big acquisitions. The fans, players and manager deserve it. Dust off that wallet, Nut.

[Legacy User]

Hurdle is the guy because Hurdle can't force Marte not to dribble a DP ball with the bases loaded and Hurdle can't force well hit balls to find the gap.

I think the Pirates are basically the late 70s Oilers...a really good team trapped in the wrong division at the wrong time.

And Clint can't change that either.

[SteelPro]

This is going to be my last post for a little while. I need a little break. I can't handle the misplaced angst and over the top negativity. But I need to vent a little so here goes...

Eventually I'll appreciate this season, but right now I can't.

Misplaced angst of salary is driving me nuts. Needless to say I lay very little blame on the feet of the GM or the owner. I will reiterate points I've already made on the subject.

Pirates finished with a better record than the Cubs. They lost in the WC to a pitcher that makes less than half the salary of Charlie Morton. The Cubs core is largely minimum salary rookies. In fact, it was one of those rookies that drove in 3 of their 4 runs last night.

The Pirates lost the division to the Cardinals by two games. The two highest salary players on the Cards spent most of the year on the DL. Did the Cards spend money to fix the holes? No. The rotation the Cards used to win the division was paid half as much as the Pirates rotation. When Matt Holliday was missing most of the year it was rookie callups Grichuk and Piscotty that carried them.

Meanwhile the Pirates added more salary to this year's payroll at the trade deadline than any team in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but the salary complaints are misguided angst. The Pirates have failed to advance for the simple reason that their players choked.

But the GM/Owner should be on notice that they must continue to work and spend to improve the roster. Frankly the best spending may just be trimming fat. Eat whatever salary you need to just to make Charlie Morton go away. And take some more damn risks. They gambled on Kang and won. I'd rather gamble on high ceiling risky players than safe high floor players. And that includes turning to high ceiling prospects sooner if need be.


This is like 90-92 all over again. Players choked. The opponents' aces out shined ours. The bats of our core players went silent in elimination games. This is largely the problem in the playoff exits the last three years. THE PLAYERS FAILED.


This is what I'll lay at the feet of the coaching staff. The teams that know us best continue to exploit our weaknesses. For as great of a pitching coach that Ray Searage is, his neglect at emphasizing and teaching how to control the running game has been an ongoing problem in games within the division. Hurdle can't allow the team to be so damn predictable that NL Division teams can almost script their wins against us.

[jeemie]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

It is all shit luck, but Arrieta wasn't dominant last night. we had our chances, and failed to execute.

If our own guy could have kept his own emotions in check, and we had a bit of fundamental execution, maybe those middle innings where we got guys on would have proceeded differently.

But the reason we need to improve is so we can fucking AVOID the Roulette game, where shit luck plays such a huge role.

That's where all phases of the team- front office, scouting, development, management, and players- need to get better.

Yeah- St. Louis won 100 games. With just a little more attention to detail, a little more of a sense of urgency that started in April and built to a crescendo in September/October, we could have done better than our 98 wins, while holding St. Louis down.

We had a losing record against every team in the NL Central. The groundwork for that was laid during the 18-22 start, where we played a lot of games against NL Central opponents.

[jeemie]

This is going to be my last post for a little while. I need a little break. I can't handle the misplaced angst and over the top negativity. But I need to vent a little so here goes...

Eventually I'll appreciate this season, but right now I can't.

Misplaced angst of salary is driving me nuts. Needless to say I lay very little me on the feet of the GM or the owner. I will reiterate points I've already made on the subject.

Pirates finished with a better record than the Cubs. They lost in the WC to a pitcher that makes less than half the salary of Charlie Morton. The Cubs core is largely minimum salary rookies. In fact, it was one of those rookies that drove in 3 of their 4 runs last night.

The Pirates lost the division to the Cardinals by two games. The two highest salary players on the Cards spent most of the year on the DL. Did the Cards spend money to fix the holes? No. The rotation the Cards used to win the division was paid half as much as the Pirates rotation. When Matt Holliday was missing most of the year it was rookie callups Grichuk and Piscotty that carried them.

Meanwhile the Pirates added more salary to this year's payroll at the trade deadline than any team in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but the salary complaints are misguided angst. The Pirates have failed to advance for the simple reason that their players choked.

But the GM/Owner should be on notice that they must continue to work and spend to improve the roster. Frankly the best way spending may be just to trimming fat. Eat whatever salary you need to just to make Charlie Morton go away. And take some more damn risks. They gambled on Kang and won. I'd rather gamble on high ceiling risky players than safe high floor players. And that includes turning to high ceiling prospects sooner if need be.


This is like 90-92 all over again. Players choked. The opponents' aces out shined ours. The bats of our core players went silent in elimination games. This is largely the problem in the playoff exits the last three years. THE PLAYERS FAILED.


This is what I'll lay at the feet of the coaching staff. The teams that know us best continue to exploit our weaknesses. For as great of a pitching coach that Ray Searage is, his neglect at emphasizing and teaching how to control the running game has been an ongoing problem in games within the division. Hurdle can't allow the team to be some damn predictable that NL Division teams can almost script their wins against us.

This is where I'm at Pro. Good post.

[Obviously]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

On #1, the Bucs win the division if they have a .500 record against NL Central foes. They dicked the dog against bottom dwellers like the Brewers and Reds.

On #2, I'm in the camp that says Arrieta was vulnerable and hittable last night. The Bucs simply did not take advantage. Marte hitting into the DP may have been more of a killer to this team than Cole giving up the two-run HR to that Kraut.

Also on #2, we have an ace too. It could argued that he was as good in the 1st half of the season as that bearded fuck was in the 2nd half. That fucking ace was not on like we needed him to be in that situation.

#3, I agree. Unfortunately next man up didn't provide the spark he does.

[Obviously]

This is going to be my last post for a little while. I need a little break. I can't handle the misplaced angst and over the top negativity. But I need to vent a little so here goes...

Eventually I'll appreciate this season, but right now I can't.

Misplaced angst of salary is driving me nuts. Needless to say I lay very little blame on the feet of the GM or the owner. I will reiterate points I've already made on the subject.

Pirates finished with a better record than the Cubs. They lost in the WC to a pitcher that makes less than half the salary of Charlie Morton. The Cubs core is largely minimum salary rookies. In fact, it was one of those rookies that drove in 3 of their 4 runs last night.

The Pirates lost the division to the Cardinals by two games. The two highest salary players on the Cards spent most of the year on the DL. Did the Cards spend money to fix the holes? No. The rotation the Cards used to win the division was paid half as much as the Pirates rotation. When Matt Holliday was missing most of the year it was rookie callups Grichuk and Piscotty that carried them.

Meanwhile the Pirates added more salary to this year's payroll at the trade deadline than any team in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but the salary complaints are misguided angst. The Pirates have failed to advance for the simple reason that their players choked.

But the GM/Owner should be on notice that they must continue to work and spend to improve the roster. Frankly the best spending may just be trimming fat. Eat whatever salary you need to just to make Charlie Morton go away. And take some more damn risks. They gambled on Kang and won. I'd rather gamble on high ceiling risky players than safe high floor players. And that includes turning to high ceiling prospects sooner if need be.


This is like 90-92 all over again. Players choked. The opponents' aces out shined ours. The bats of our core players went silent in elimination games. This is largely the problem in the playoff exits the last three years. THE PLAYERS FAILED.


This is what I'll lay at the feet of the coaching staff. The teams that know us best continue to exploit our weaknesses. For as great of a pitching coach that Ray Searage is, his neglect at emphasizing and teaching how to control the running game has been an ongoing problem in games within the division. Hurdle can't allow the team to be so damn predictable that NL Division teams can almost script their wins against us.

This pretty much sums everything up.

[Legacy User]

Reds got pissed at Dusty Baker two years ago after losing WC playoff and it's been all downhill since.

Firing Hurdle is about the stupidest idea I've heard.

The 78 Oilers could fire Bum Phillips and it wouldn't matter.

[Legacy User]

This is going to be my last post for a little while. I need a little break. I can't handle the misplaced angst and over the top negativity. But I need to vent a little so here goes...

Eventually I'll appreciate this season, but right now I can't.

Misplaced angst of salary is driving me nuts. Needless to say I lay very little blame on the feet of the GM or the owner. I will reiterate points I've already made on the subject.

Pirates finished with a better record than the Cubs. They lost in the WC to a pitcher that makes less than half the salary of Charlie Morton. The Cubs core is largely minimum salary rookies. In fact, it was one of those rookies that drove in 3 of their 4 runs last night.

The Pirates lost the division to the Cardinals by two games. The two highest salary players on the Cards spent most of the year on the DL. Did the Cards spend money to fix the holes? No. The rotation the Cards used to win the division was paid half as much as the Pirates rotation. When Matt Holliday was missing most of the year it was rookie callups Grichuk and Piscotty that carried them.

Meanwhile the Pirates added more salary to this year's payroll at the trade deadline than any team in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but the salary complaints are misguided angst. The Pirates have failed to advance for the simple reason that their players choked.

But the GM/Owner should be on notice that they must continue to work and spend to improve the roster. Frankly the best spending may just be trimming fat. Eat whatever salary you need to just to make Charlie Morton go away. And take some more damn risks. They gambled on Kang and won. I'd rather gamble on high ceiling risky players than safe high floor players. And that includes turning to high ceiling prospects sooner if need be.


This is like 90-92 all over again. Players choked. The opponents' aces out shined ours. The bats of our core players went silent in elimination games. This is largely the problem in the playoff exits the last three years. THE PLAYERS FAILED.


This is what I'll lay at the feet of the coaching staff. The teams that know us best continue to exploit our weaknesses. For as great of a pitching coach that Ray Searage is, his neglect at emphasizing and teaching how to control the running game has been an ongoing problem in games within the division. Hurdle can't allow the team to be so damn predictable that NL Division teams can almost script their wins against us.

Great post, Pro.

I don't disagree with you about the spending. Your Cardinal example is a good one. The problem is, the Bucs just don't seem to have (or at least we don't see it) the Grichuks, etc. to plug in. If you're failing to develop the players fast enough then I want to see money spent to bring in the horses to get it done NOW, not next year, not down the road.

If we're not going to bring up the Glasnows and Josh kid who plays 1B (can't recall his last name right now) either becuase they're not ready, years of control, or whatever the fuck, then go get an ace pitcher and stud 1B.

[jeemie]

I don't disagree with you about the spending. Your Cardinal example is a good one. The problem is, the Bucs just don't seem to have (or at least we don't see it) the Grichuks, etc. to plug in. If you're failing to develop the players fast enough then I want to see money spent to bring in the horses to get it done NOW, not next year, not down the road.

If we're not going to bring up the Glasnows and Josh kid who plays 1B (can't recall his last name right now) either becuase they're not ready, years of control, or whatever the fuck, then go get an ace pitcher and stud 1B.

It all has to get better...for all our vaunted minor league system, almost every one of our stars came from the Littlefield regime.

In Neal's six? years at the helm, we've had Cole, Marte, and Polanco, and Mercer come up (and i think Mercer was from Littlefield era too).

That's it. That's not acceptable for an organization that can't spend like teh big boys.

You can do it like the Cubs do it...go for years of control by delaying the rookies' call-up until late April so you get an extra year of control.

But don't go all cheap and wait until June so you can avoid Super Two as well...to the detriment of the team.

As I said, a large part of our losing record against the NL Central was established in the first couple of months of the season when we stumbled to an 18-22 start. We went 11-18 against the NL Central during that time- 2-4 against St. Louis, 3-6 against Chicago, and 1-7 against Cincinnati (amazingly, we waited until the second half to suck against Milwaukee- we went 5-1 against them early on).

During that time, we were dicking around with barely playing Jung Ho Kang, and had no one in the minors to take the place of Jeff Locke and Vance Worley (Charlie Morton was coming back from injury...fat lot of good he did anyway).

We get better at recognizing the talent and playing them early- maybe that 18-22 start doesn't happen.

And it happened in 2014 too- both years, we finished only two games back at the end.

[Legacy User]

Misplaced angst of salary is driving me nuts. Needless to say I lay very little blame on the feet of the GM or the owner. I will reiterate points I've already made on the subject.

Pirates finished with a better record than the Cubs. They lost in the WC to a pitcher that makes less than half the salary of Charlie Morton. The Cubs core is largely minimum salary rookies. In fact, it was one of those rookies that drove in 3 of their 4 runs last night.

The Pirates lost the division to the Cardinals by two games. The two highest salary players on the Cards spent most of the year on the DL. Did the Cards spend money to fix the holes? No. The rotation the Cards used to win the division was paid half as much as the Pirates rotation. When Matt Holliday was missing most of the year it was rookie callups Grichuk and Piscotty that carried them.

Meanwhile the Pirates added more salary to this year's payroll at the trade deadline than any team in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but the salary complaints are misguided angst. The Pirates have failed to advance for the simple reason that their players choked.

But the GM/Owner should be on notice that they must continue to work and spend to improve the roster. Frankly the best spending may just be trimming fat. Eat whatever salary you need to just to make Charlie Morton go away. And take some more damn risks. They gambled on Kang and won. I'd rather gamble on high ceiling risky players than safe high floor players. And that includes turning to high ceiling prospects sooner if need be.

This is like 90-92 all over again. Players choked. The opponents' aces out shined ours. The bats of our core players went silent in elimination games. This is largely the problem in the playoff exits the last three years. THE PLAYERS FAILED.

This is what I'll lay at the feet of the coaching staff. The teams that know us best continue to exploit our weaknesses. For as great of a pitching coach that Ray Searage is, his neglect at emphasizing and teaching how to control the running game has been an ongoing problem in games within the division. Hurdle can't allow the team to be so damn predictable that NL Division teams can almost script their wins against us.

1. I agree with the comment about Searage.

2. I agree with the comment about players failing. However, recently I discussed how baseball has changed over time, "progressing" from two teams going directly to the World Series to what it is today. Even the Cardinals have a tougher path because they must today win a NLDS as well as a NLCS before going to the World Series. It was you who reminded me/us that to be fair that we must recognize that today's Pirates faced an extra "hurdle", the roulette game, one-and-done, single elimination. Perhaps playing a best of 3 or best of 5 would have negated the obvious significant advantage that was Arrieta? Perhaps not?

3. I have no issues with trimming the fat that is Charlie Morton. You are preaching here to the choir. Problem is, as you or someone else has mentioned, CMo benefits from being Searage's teacher's pet. What is misguided is the continuing long rope that is given to someone who, at best, pitches inconsistently, and at worst, exemplifies the choking to which you refer.

4. You say that the Pirates added more payroll @ the trade deadline than any other team. If you choose to discount the fact that said payroll increase was for primarily 2 1/2 months (I'm giving you a little in July and October to help your argument), you need then, just to be fair, to acknowledge that this extra payroll is essentially "prorated" payroll for the entire season. I believe you or someone said the number was $10 million, but prorated the $10 million for the entire season would be around $4 million.

5. I would respectfully suggest to you that the Cardinals didn't have to replace their high salaried DL players with other high salary players because one, they didn't have to do so. The new guys kept the train rolling right down the track. Maybe their minor league system is every bit as good as any other system? Two, maybe they would have had in a trade to mortgage part of that future by trading with another team mid-season and their continuing to win with younger players made them think twice. I will say that, looking @ the Pirates, Cubs, and Cardinals, the Cubs & Cardinals would have been willing to make what they considered a good baseball move even if it meant spending extra dollars. Are you sure that applies to the Pirates -- the same team that's all about "years of control"?

6. Arrieta will get his money, don't you worry about that. If he doesn't get it with the Cubs it will be because the Cubs decided to pay someone else with his money, not because he got too rich for their blood. You might mention that McCutcheon gave the team the home town discount. That's right, he did. What if he insisted on getting fair market value or higher? Would he be here today? I think we know the answer to those questions.

7. Please don't let my "misguided angst" or anyone else's drive you nuts. You are a good man Pro. You know your baseball, and I appreciate what you bring to this site. Sometimes I confess to you that I don't know why you post here if we bother you so much, but that is your privilege, just as it is my privilege to have my angst, misguided or not. However, unless you are Bob Nutting, I don't get why you watch his money like a hawk. I watch it like a hawk because, IMHO, he isn't all in when it comes to spending that money and perhaps, just perhaps, if that salary had been increased in the off season instead of at the trade deadline, this team would not again have stumbled out of the gate. Don't worry, though, his money is safe and secure because, I don't know if you've heard it yet or not, we have a great minor league pipeline that will pick up all the slack. Years of control.

[SteelPro]

4. You say that the Pirates added more payroll @ the trade deadline than any other team. If you choose to discount the fact that said payroll increase was for primarily 2 1/2 months (I'm giving you a little in July and October to help your argument), you need then, just to be fair, to acknowledge that this extra payroll is essentially "prorated" payroll for the entire season. I believe you or someone said the number was $10 million, but prorated the $10 million for the entire season would be around $4 million.

It wasn't prorated $10 million. It was close to $10 million in real dollars still owed to these players for this season.

ARam was owed $6 million at the time of trade. Brewers and Pirates split the remaining salary evenly.

Happ was owed about $2 million. Pirates absorbed the whole cost.

Soria was owed about $2.5 M. Pirates absorbed the whole cost.

Morse was partially offset by dumping Tabata. Dodgers and Bucs split the net remaining from the 2 deals so this added roughly $1 million.

Add a few shekles absorbed for Blanton. Maybe $250 K.

3+ 2+ 2.5 + 1 + .250 = 8.75M

That was just at the trade deadline. Add the waiver acquisition of Ishikawa earlier in the month July (owed 600K) and Travis Snider (min) late August and that gets you to $9.5 M

No team added as much.




The data is right here for anyone that wants to read it.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/payroll- ... -deadline/

[jeemie]

IMHO, he isn't all in when it comes to spending that money and perhaps, just perhaps, if that salary had been increased in the off season instead of at the trade deadline, this team would not again have stumbled out of the gate.

Real-life example.

End of 2013. Marlon Byrd, who had aided the Pirates immensely down the stretch and in the playoffs, and Justin Morneau, who didn't help all that much but semed to be coming on towards the end of post-season, were available.

Morneau would have filled a MAJOR hole at first base...one that still exists today. Byrd could have provided Polanco with more growth time at Indy...for sure would have provided a better bridge than Snider/Harrison.

Morneau signed a 2-year $12.5 M deal with Colorado. Byrd signed a 2 year $16 M deal with Philadelphia.

Neither would/should have been a back-breaker for the Pirates. Morneau would have been downright cheap and filled that hole at 1B.

In 2014, Morneau triple slashed .319/.364/.496. It wasn't all driven by being at Coors Field...his numbers there were only slightly better than elsewhere. Think that might have looked better at first base at the beginning of the year rather than Ike Davis/Travis Ishikawa/Gaby Sanchez? Morneau sat out most of 2015 due to injury but who's to say that would have happened had he been in da 'burgh?

Byrd triple slashed .264/.312/.445. Not great numbers but look at that power...25 dingers...about half hit away from the launching pad that is Citizen's Bank Park. Travis Snider hit almost the same, but only had half the power. Ishikawa was gone halfway through the season. Gregory Polanco went into a massive rookie slump and was on the bench towards the end of the season. Byrd tailed off in 2015 (still had a little pop, though), but by that time, Polanco would have been playing his way into the lineup, and Byrd would be a valuable bench guy.

Two pickups who enjoyed their time in Pittsburgh that could have immensely helped the 2014 squad at a relative bargain price.

No ducats from Nutting for either of them.

[SteelPro]

6. Arrieta will get his money, don't you worry about that. If he doesn't get it with the Cubs it will be because the Cubs decided to pay someone else with his money, not because he got too rich for their blood. You might mention that McCutcheon gave the team the home town discount. That's right, he did. What if he insisted on getting fair market value or higher? Would he be here today? I think we know the answer to those questions.

Another hypocritical complaint that drives me crazy.

Did Anthony Rizzo not give Chicago a home town discount?

Did Adam Wainwright not give the St. Louis a home town discount?

Oh, yes they did. Why is it a negative when a Pirate does that. Personally I think it says something great about the organization that they can sell a star player on giving a team a hometown discount.

[jeemie]

6. Arrieta will get his money, don't you worry about that. If he doesn't get it with the Cubs it will be because the Cubs decided to pay someone else with his money, not because he got too rich for their blood. You might mention that McCutcheon gave the team the home town discount. That's right, he did. What if he insisted on getting fair market value or higher? Would he be here today? I think we know the answer to those questions.

Another hypocritical complaint that drives me crazy.

Did Anthony Rizzo not give Chicago a home town discount?

Did Adam Wainwright not give the St. Louis a home town discount?

Oh, yes they did. Why is it a negative when a Pirate does that. Personally I think it says something great about the organization that they can sell a star player on giving a team a hometown discount.

I don't think Bling was saying it was a negative.

I think he was saying thank God Cutch gave us a hometown discount, or Cutch would have been gone when he hit FA.

That kind of shit goes back before Nutting, though.

In the early 90s, I would have paid Bonds and let Van Slyke walk.

Bonds was a once in a generation player, even without the cream and the clear.

Van Slyke was a nice player.

[Obviously]

6. Arrieta will get his money, don't you worry about that. If he doesn't get it with the Cubs it will be because the Cubs decided to pay someone else with his money, not because he got too rich for their blood. You might mention that McCutcheon gave the team the home town discount. That's right, he did. What if he insisted on getting fair market value or higher? Would he be here today? I think we know the answer to those questions.

Another hypocritical complaint that drives me crazy.

Did Anthony Rizzo not give Chicago a home town discount?

Did Adam Wainwright not give the St. Louis a home town discount?

Oh, yes they did. Why is it a negative when a Pirate does that. Personally I think it says something great about the organization that they can sell a star player on giving a team a hometown discount.

I don't think Bling was saying it was a negative.

I think he was saying thank God Cutch gave us a hometown discount, or Cutch would have been gone when he hit FA.

That kind of shit goes back before Nutting, though.

In the early 90s, I would have paid Bonds and let Van Slyke walk.

Bonds was a once in a generation player, even without the cream and the clear.

Van Slyke was a nice player.

They could have offered Bonds all of Western Pennsylvania, and he wouldn't have stayed. He was going to San Francisco regardless of anything.

[jeemie]

They could have offered Bonds all of Western Pennsylvania, and he wouldn't have stayed. He was going to San Francisco regardless of anything.

Maybe.

We never even tried.

And he was miffed when they paid Van Slyke ahead of him...think that colored his perceptions a bit?

[Legacy User]

I agree with Obviously, he wanted out and into his Dad's organization....trying wouldn't have mattered.

Before we go too hard on Hurdle, look at the percentage of one run games he won. Remarkable.

I've been hard on him about underusing Kang, but its hard to argue with 98 wins.

Believe me if we could take 98 wins in 2016 vs. what's behind the door, we'd take the 98.

[Legacy User]

Straight up question -- If Cutch had asked for fair market value, would he have gotten it? You may speculate the answer is YES. Looking strictly at Nutting's behavior over time, I'd speculate the correct answer is NO. BTW, thank you Jeemie for correctly discerning my intent. It is nice to have someone give me the benefit of the doubt I'd like to think that I may have earned over time.

As for hypocrisy, it has been postulated that the Pirates choked last night. I can see both sides of this argument, because I'm willing to consider varying view points. Let's assume it is correct that they choked. Let's further assume the the FO, with which little can be found to fault, according to some, also can see that choking occurred last night, and in 2014, and in 2013. Next question -- Is it not this same FO that assembled these playoff chokers? Perhaps 2013 was an aberration. Perhaps 2014 was Bumgarner. Perhaps 2015 was Arrieta, bad luck, etc. But if the answer as some maintain lies in choking, just how can you expect chokers to win a world championship?

As for driving you crazy, sir, you flatter me. Here's what I find interesting -- but it doesn't drive me crazy. I'll concede the $10 million in salary addition was real $ vs. prorated money. , http://www.thebaseballcube.com/extras/payrolls/

Now, if we add $10 million to roughly $86 million (Pirate's # for 2015), that gets us to $96 million, raising the Pirates from #24 to #22 in payroll, without accounting for what other teams above or below them may have added or deleted. Forgive me for being somewhat less than overwhelmed by that expenditure.

[Legacy User]

IMHO, he isn't all in when it comes to spending that money and perhaps, just perhaps, if that salary had been increased in the off season instead of at the trade deadline, this team would not again have stumbled out of the gate.

Real-life example.

End of 2013. Marlon Byrd, who had aided the Pirates immensely down the stretch and in the playoffs, and Justin Morneau, who didn't help all that much but semed to be coming on towards the end of post-season, were available.

Morneau would have filled a MAJOR hole at first base...one that still exists today. Byrd could have provided Polanco with more growth time at Indy...for sure would have provided a better bridge than Snider/Harrison.

Morneau signed a 2-year $12.5 M deal with Colorado. Byrd signed a 2 year $16 M deal with Philadelphia.

Neither would/should have been a back-breaker for the Pirates. Morneau would have been downright cheap and filled that hole at 1B.

In 2014, Morneau triple slashed .319/.364/.496. It wasn't all driven by being at Coors Field...his numbers there were only slightly better than elsewhere. Think that might have looked better at first base at the beginning of the year rather than Ike Davis/Travis Ishikawa/Gaby Sanchez? Morneau sat out most of 2015 due to injury but who's to say that would have happened had he been in da 'burgh?

Byrd triple slashed .264/.312/.445. Not great numbers but look at that power...25 dingers...about half hit away from the launching pad that is Citizen's Bank Park. Travis Snider hit almost the same, but only had half the power. Ishikawa was gone halfway through the season. Gregory Polanco went into a massive rookie slump and was on the bench towards the end of the season. Byrd tailed off in 2015 (still had a little pop, though), but by that time, Polanco would have been playing his way into the lineup, and Byrd would be a valuable bench guy.

Two pickups who enjoyed their time in Pittsburgh that could have immensely helped the 2014 squad at a relative bargain price.

No ducats from Nutting for either of them.

Great post, Jeems. Agreed 100%.

It's not a matter of going out and going after the top FA's @ their respective positions.

It's a matter of spending money when it makes sense to do so.

It's even more a matter of obtaining and developing young talent and getting them to the bigs as soon as they can possibly be there, sooner the better in most cases. Cards do that year after year after year. Cubs seem to be learning how to do it now. And damn the years of control thing (and that's where the money comes in).

If we did a better job of those things maybe we don't have to have a 10M swing at the trade deadline. Because we've spent that money and invested and made good decisions fundamentally at the organizational level, and we're built to compete solidly from the start of April to the finish.

Good points in this thread, gents.