Modern Russia

[Legacy User]

Looks to be amazing.
It's nice to see a country actually willing to show in 2015 that you can still be powerful.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/sy ... story.html

[Nick79]

I'm actually glad to see somebody else take brutal unilateral action while Washington "frowns on them" I could care less what Assad does to his people, like I didn't care what Saddam did to his people, as long as they kept ISIS or Al Queda under control!

It is nice to see a pragmatic super power that has no delusions of "saving the world". And if Assad is so bad and we have to remove him, I'd say we need to remove those fat ass Saudi Kings who repress women and behead people if it's about doing what's right... but since it really isn't, we support those Saudi assholes. At least Assad and Saddam where trying for secular nations.

[R_S]

Russian President Vladimir Putin said the strikes spoke to the professionalism of Russia’s revamped army.

Strangely reminiscent of Hitler sharpening his army in the Spanish Civil War.

[Legacy User]

The first two posts give this thread a lot of potential. Nick's post in particular is filled with nuance and studied reflection.

[Legacy User]

RS knows his history.

The Middle East was accurately portrayed in Syriana, with many moving parts and the West always having to decide between bad and worse. Bush cynically decided the royal family was the best bad option in Saudi Arabia but failed to realize Saddam was probably the best bad option in Iraq (other than the three state solution, which we rejected as deference to Turkey---mistake).

The best bad option is probably colonialism, which is a nonstarter for the US in today's environment. But Putin is really achieving this through the backdoor since Assad now owes him and he can be played like a puppet.

I'd love the do nothing option but the problem is that this will come to America and Europe in a disastrous way especially with people like Merkel in charge. Sweden and Britain are essentially on life support as Western cultures.

[Legacy User]

Dan, isn't colonialism in the Middle East leading up to and following WWI a major contributing factor to the current cluster fuck? A bunch of artificially drawn lines that failed to grasp the prevailing tribal and ethnic divisions?

The cynics are probably secretly applauding Putin's move on the assumption that he may just have entered into a quagmire from which extraction will be difficult. It might end up being awfully expensive, too. Propping up despised dictators is a difficult business. If Putin wants his own Iraq project, let him have it.

The U.S. has a major firewall that Europe does not: two giant oceans and a population that is much more conservative.

[Legacy User]

Two oceans maybe, I don't think the US is so conservative anymore.

Syriana had it right...the big problem that has no solution...the US right now is not in the mood for military action

We could have not made it worse with the Iran nuclear agreement.

Colonialism will always be blamed for everything...but every nation in the world has been colonized...at some point adolescents need to get their shit together and become adults...Turkey kind of showed promise after Ataturk but is now regressing.

[Legacy User]

Dan, I'm hardly blaming colonialism for everything. But the effects of colonialism on current Middle East politics seem hard to deny. You're advocating more colonial foreign policy as a lesser of two evils for our own interests, but how has colonial politics (I guess we call it nation building now) worked out for us?

Relative to Western European polities, the U.S. is much more conservative.

I am not arguing that current nations born out of colonization are not responsible for getting their shit together. See how condescending you are by referring to these places as juvenile. The metaphor is perhaps a poor one.

[Legacy User]

Yes I think stoning women for adultery and killing infidels and throwing homosexuals off buildings is juvenile. If you prefer primitive, I'm Ok with that too. I'm very Bill Maher I don't give a shit about political correctness right now so that kind of approach won't work.

Here's the problem with doing nothing:

[COR-TEN]

Dan, isn't colonialism in the Middle East leading up to and following WWI a major contributing factor to the current cluster fuck? A bunch of artificially drawn lines that failed to grasp the prevailing tribal and ethnic divisions?

The cynics are probably secretly applauding Putin's move on the assumption that he may just have entered into a quagmire from which extraction will be difficult. It might end up being awfully expensive, too. Propping up despised dictators is a difficult business. If Putin wants his own Iraq project, let him have it.

The U.S. has a major firewall that Europe does not: two giant oceans and a population that is much more conservative.

Putin doesn't want his own Iraq project. He has that in Ukraine. Putin is a megalomaniacal mafioso thug, and he is doing his best to thwart the US's power in the region. He is trying to create a dynamic that resembles the cold war - two super powers balancing each other out - and propagates his belief that totalitarian dictators are the preferred method of state control.

Expect this behavior to continue all over the globe, but yes. I will say that Bush's unilateral invasion of Iraq with no real proof of anything set the precedent. Putin justifies his actions with the offset that the US is the most dangerous country in the world creating instability wherever it imposes it's will and exercises imperialism. Russia is just trying to clean up the mess. At least that's what he wants the world to think.

[COR-TEN]

Two oceans maybe, I don't think the US is so conservative anymore.

Syriana had it right...the big problem that has no solution...the US right now is not in the mood for military action

We could have not made it worse with the Iran nuclear agreement.

Colonialism will always be blamed for everything...but every nation in the world has been colonized...at some point adolescents need to get their shit together and become adults...Turkey kind of showed promise after Ataturk but is now regressing.

Very myopic. It's more complicated than just saying that "countries need to get their shit together." It's not that easy, but you make it sound as though it were. I also agree with Lit's assessment of your condescension and labeling of other cultures as "juvenile."

How did the Iran deal make it worse?

[Legacy User]

Yes I think stoning women for adultery and killing infidels and throwing homosexuals off buildings is juvenile. If you prefer primitive, I'm Ok with that too. I'm very Bill Maher I don't give a shit about political correctness right now so that kind of approach won't work.

Here's the problem with doing nothing:

Has nothing to do with political correctness. You should make use of history. Doomed to repeat and all that. I think stoning is barbaric. Would you like to invade and impose western democracy to put a stop to it? Get your head out of your ass. The factions in the Middle East are not merely the result of barbarism. The ethnic and religious divisions go back a long ways. The artificial carving of the region due to colonialism ignored these realities and the region is still dealing with it. to say that the problems are down to "immaturity" is laughable on its face.

You want these regions to grow up but at the same time you want to intervene and not allow them to rule themselves. Hunh.

[955876]

The Iran deal is going to cause problems.

We have a lame duck president negotiating a deal without Congress and doing so with Iranian President who could very well be ousted by the Supreme Leader of Iran.

And people don't see the issue here?

The extremely anti-U.S. Ayatollah is going to get a nuke.

[Legacy User]

No they have proven they can't advance. The US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia were colonies too. And if they can't advance and they are declaring homicidal intent toward Israel and the West, then letting them have a nuke is crazy.

Of course, in fifty years it won't matter because England has nukes and at the point very well may be under control of an Islamic majority.

It amazes me how intensely liberals will defend the most anti-liberal cultures on the planet.

My bias is always toward nonintervention but practically speaking, Iran should not have a nuke and we lost our chance to stop that.

[Legacy User]

No they have proven they can't advance. The US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia were colonies too. And if they can't advance and they are declaring homicidal intent toward Israel and the West, then letting them have a nuke is crazy.

Of course, in fifty years it won't matter because England has nukes and at the point very well may be under control of an Islamic majority.

It amazes me how intensely liberals will defend the most anti-liberal cultures on the planet.

My bias is always toward nonintervention but practically speaking, Iran should not have a nuke and we lost our chance to stop that.

I wouldn't say we lost our chance so much as voluntarily relinquished it.

[COR-TEN]

So, if the Iran deal is so bad, and the US let them have what they wanted on a silver platter, what other alternative other than sanctions are there? Sanctions that didn't prevent them from filling the proverbial cartoon bomb.

[Legacy User]

I guess Putin referred to psych 101 under the chapter dealing with passive aggressive behavior and put that together with Sept 2, 1939. Hence no military take over of Ukraine by Russia.

Middle East, the star wars prequel.

As for Spain both the Soviets and the Germans had their military technology there.

Barry checkers, Vlad 3D chess.

[955876]

It amazes me how intensely liberals will defend the most anti-liberal cultures on the planet.

Exactly...

[Legacy User]

It amazes me how intensely liberals will defend the most anti-liberal cultures on the planet.

Exactly...

Who is doing this in this thread?

I don't think either of you two get it.

My comments have nothing to do with whether the Iran deal is good or not. My comments are about Dan's silly colonialism as the worst of two evils.

Why America was so successful as a colony is because we were used to self rule. There was already effectively self rule by the people in England. You know, they already had a fucking parliament. You can't just export democracy and think it's going to work. If a people know nothing but rule through brutality, don't be surprised if the populace brutalizes itself after you've liberated it. Bush 2 was a fucking idiot not because he thought Western democracy a good form of government, but because he thought people have lived under tyranny for generations could easily accept it if it was forced onto them.

If you think nation building is a good idea, you're dumb. Period. This isn't a liberal bs conservative position, Dan. Again, they haven't proved that can advance so your solution is to infantilize them by imposing our rule on them. Brilliant.

[R_S]

Dan. Again, they haven't proved that can advance so your solution is to infantilize them by imposing our rule on them. Brilliant.

It's a shame complete annihilation is off the table.

[955876]

Who is doing this in this thread?

I don't think either of you two get it.

I made one comment in this thread and it was solely in response to the comment Dan made that I responded to.

It also wasn't in reference to anything anyone else said in this thread.

Not sure what it is exactly that you think I don't "get".

My comments here were limited to agreeing that liberals do tend to defend the most anti-liberal cultures. That isn't my opinion as much as it's what they have "put on tape". If you will.



And again, I'm referring to his one comment I responded to. I did not read the other exchanges too deeply nor comment on them. So please refrain from the "don't get it comments".

[Suwanee88]

Dan. Again, they haven't proved that can advance so your solution is to infantilize them by imposing our rule on them. Brilliant.

It's a shame complete annihilation is off the table.

Agree with this.

[Legacy User]

Good read on the backdoor imperalism I talked about:

http://freebeacon.com/blog/the-conventi ... sly-wrong/

[Legacy User]

Dan. Again, they haven't proved that can advance so your solution is to infantilize them by imposing our rule on them. Brilliant.

It's a shame complete annihilation is off the table.

Agree with this.

You mean ISIS or all Muslins on the planet? Hopefully the former. Or are you dumb enough to think all Muslims are ISIS sympathizes including the Muslims being raped and butchered by ISIS? I mean, we know Dan is that dumb. He'd like to see a new crusade. But RS, I rather doubt you are that dumb.

My comments about self rule do not apply to ISIS crazies: I mean Iraqis, Afghans, etc. Iranians are rather sophisticated and would transition easily to representative democracy and probably would have if we stick our noses in and give the current crazies the occasion to take over. If all you have known is brutal tyranny it will take a lot of work to transition to stable democracy. Look how long it took Europe to transition from monarchy to stable democracy. We have just witnessed a first attempt at an Arab Spring, and yet you see dumbasses declaring we should just kill them all. Amazing. A lot of blood and a lot of barabsrism along the way. There is nothing special about the west. History is a series of inessential accidents. Nothing that has happened must have happened as it has. Only religious freaks or nut bag Hegelians think teleology figures into history.

The U.S., Australia, New Zealand, all founded by people who came from places with established self rule.

[COR-TEN]

And the original thread was "Modern Russia" and its involvement in Syria. Instead it devolved into insulting libs with Dan's remarks pulled out of his Right Wing talking point handbook.

What I don't get is how conservatives spew nonsense about personal freedom and self determination but stick their nose in everybody's business. Talk about a double standard.

But back to Russia -

Modern Russia is an oxymoron. Especially when Putin wants to bring everybody back to the 1950's.

[955876]

What I don't get is how conservatives spew nonsense about personal freedom and self determination but stick their nose in everybody's business. Talk about a double standard.

Personal freedom is nonsense??

Liberals don't "stick their nose in other peoples business"??

[COR-TEN]

I never said they didn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erEq2HtrM84

[Legacy User]

Yes, conservatives are just like John Lithgow in Footloose, trying to shut down dances all over America.

Meanwhile, on college campuses PC administrators are falling all over themselves to go (trigger warning) full retard:

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6873

[Legacy User]

You mean ISIS or all Muslins on the planet? Hopefully the former. Or are you dumb enough to think all Muslims are ISIS sympathizes including the Muslims being raped and butchered by ISIS? I mean, we know Dan is that dumb. He'd like to see a new crusade. But RS, I rather doubt you are that dumb.

My comments about self rule do not apply to ISIS crazies: I mean Iraqis, Afghans, etc. Iranians are rather sophisticated and would transition easily to representative democracy and probably would have if we stick our noses in and give the current crazies the occasion to take over. If all you have known is brutal tyranny it will take a lot of work to transition to stable democracy. Look how long it took Europe to transition from monarchy to stable democracy. We have just witnessed a first attempt at an Arab Spring, and yet you see dumbasses declaring we should just kill them all. Amazing. A lot of blood and a lot of barabsrism along the way. There is nothing special about the west. History is a series of inessential accidents. Nothing that has happened must have happened as it has. Only religious freaks or nut bag Hegelians think teleology figures into history.

The U.S., Australia, New Zealand, all founded by people who came from places with established self rule.

That a little disingenuous considering IIRC 30%
, it might be higher, of ALL muslims want to live under Sharia. That is a real problem in other than Muslim countries.

Also IIRC it was founding father John Adams that stated that our Constitution was made for a moral and Christian people. I would think he's right that it wasn't made for people in conflict with a moral western civilization society. Not that people aren't free in that context to be free to win the Darwin Award or otherwise other than tearing down the society itself.

And the original thread was "Modern Russia" and its involvement in Syria. Instead it devolved into insulting libs with Dan's remarks pulled out of his Right Wing talking point handbook.

What I don't get is how conservatives spew nonsense about personal freedom and self determination but stick their nose in everybody's business. Talk about a double standard.

But back to Russia -

Modern Russia is an oxymoron. Especially when Putin wants to bring everybody back to the 1950's.

lib and right wing are meaningless real world terms other than forming pleb opinion. not much different than heels and good guys in pro raslin.

[Legacy User]

That 30% or more wish to live under religious law does not make anything I wrote disingenuous. You may have meant a different term. If anything it supports what I have said. At one point in the West, no power was recognized that did not have religious sanction.

The Muslim culture has a serious problem with extremism that is a real threat and that must be dealt with. History shows that there is nothing essentially extreme about Muslim culture. That's what hawkish people want everyone to think, however.

Again, if all a people know is brutal dictatorship, it will be hard to change quickly to peaceful self rule. What is surprising and hopeful is that only 30% wish for such law.