Mendenhall: Ben's a racist

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Quixotic
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Re: Mendenhall: Ben's a racist

Post by Quixotic » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:12 pm

955876 wrote:
R S wrote:
i think it goes "half the people are dumber than that" as in average would be right in the middle , half dumber half smarter. :D :D :D


Hmmmm if are splitting hairs here, if half are dumber and half smarter that leaves out the group that is average... ;)


I like the hair-splitting thing. If by “average” you mean “median,” then there is, by definition, an equal number of people dumber as smarter.

But generally, we say “average” when we mean “mean.” The mean is sensitive to the extremes.

So, if there are some really-really-really dumb people over on the dumb side of the equation, and fewer equally-but-opposite smart people on the smart side, then more than half the people will end up being “dumber than average.” Anyone who has ever hung out at the food court of a mall realizes that this is likely the case.

It’s like having a fat kid and a skinny kid on a seesaw. The “average” aka “mean” is gonna fall way to the fat-kid side of the center point (aka the “median”).



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JackLambert58
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Post by JackLambert58 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:51 pm

Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”


I know this is off-topic so my apologies, but it goes up my spine every time I see somebody saying or posting it. Ty Cobb was maligned and slandered by a drunken sportswriter named Al Stump who wrote Cobb's biography in the early 60's. And Stump cowardly did it after Cobb's death so, of course, Cobb couldn't respond to the charges. Cobb was no angel, but he was not the vicious racist as Stump claimed he was and perpetuated by Charles C. Alexander and Ken Burns. Please read Charles Leehrsen's book "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty" which is extremely well-researched. You WILL change your mind about Cobb once you read it.


Link to the Cobb book: https://www.amazon.com/Ty-Cobb-Terrible ... 578&sr=8-1

Carry on with the thread.
"Jack Lambert is mean and relentless wherever he goes, on and off the field! I do remember many times he would chase me in practice, but no way would I let him catch me" - Franco Harris

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Post by the-other-burg » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:06 pm

This just in... Solomon Wilcots is reporting that Rasheed Mendinghall called Ben Rufflisberger a racist.

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Lynch
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Post by Lynch » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:33 pm

Quixotic wrote:
955876 wrote:
R S wrote:
i think it goes "half the people are dumber than that" as in average would be right in the middle , half dumber half smarter. :D :D :D


Hmmmm if are splitting hairs here, if half are dumber and half smarter that leaves out the group that is average... ;)


I like the hair-splitting thing. If by “average” you mean “median,” then there is, by definition, an equal number of people dumber as smarter.

But generally, we say “average” when we mean “mean.” The mean is sensitive to the extremes.

So, if there are some really-really-really dumb people over on the dumb side of the equation, and fewer equally-but-opposite smart people on the smart side, then more than half the people will end up being “dumber than average.” Anyone who has ever hung out at the food court of a mall realizes that this is likely the case.

It’s like having a fat kid and a skinny kid on a seesaw. The “average” aka “mean” is gonna fall way to the fat-kid side of the center point (aka the “median”).


We may need to summons the Signsteinert for this one, but I believe the right way to interpret these #'s would be with the bell curve/z-score. I think it's safe to say that most people (of a particular group) would fall within one standard deviation either direction of a 100 IQ. 66% if I remember right. If true, you'd have 17% above 110 and 17% below 90. I think 85 IQ is borderline retarded, again, if I remember right.

SIGNSTEIN!!! COME OUT OF RETIREMENT!!! WE NEED YOU!!!

Quixotic
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Post by Quixotic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:58 pm

JackLambert58 wrote:
Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”


I know this is off-topic so my apologies, but it goes up my spine every time I see somebody saying or posting it. Ty Cobb was maligned and slandered by a drunken sportswriter named Al Stump who wrote Cobb's biography in the early 60's. And Stump cowardly did it after Cobb's death so, of course, Cobb couldn't respond to the charges. Cobb was no angel, but he was not the vicious racist as Stump claimed he was and perpetuated by Charles C. Alexander and Ken Burns. Please read Charles Leehrsen's book "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty" which is extremely well-researched. You WILL change your mind about Cobb once you read it.


Link to the Cobb book: https://www.amazon.com/Ty-Cobb-Terrible ... 578&sr=8-1

Carry on with the thread.


Thanks, Jack. I’ll take a look if I get a chance.

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Post by R_S » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:28 pm

Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”



To be fair, males with the kind of athletic talent, size, etc, to be in the NFL have all grown up very high amounts of privilege. Black, white whatever. Which can very easily lead to brutish behavior later in life.

I guess Mendenhall was trying to make a point, but he did it in an idiotic, libelous way.

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Post by zeke5123 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:46 pm

Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”


Mods -- if this isn't appropriate, please delete. But there has been something that has been bothering me for a while -- as a soceity we treat racism as the ultimate sin.

Let's say Ben is a racist but takes no action except maybe snubbing a few black persons and generally holding a bad view of black people because of thier skin color. Not good -- I hope we can all agree that that is bad. But is it so bad that we need to record it for posterity?

Let's say there are two Bens:

Ben A is a racist (i.e., doesn't like black people because they are black, but the extent of it is that he holds negative thoughts about black people and is sometimes mean to them unjustly) and is otherwise perfect.

Ben B is an absentee, bad father but is otherwise perfect (i.e., not a racist).

Would Q make the same post that Ben B's shitness as a father should be recorded for posterity? Maybe Q would, but I don't think as a soceity we'd have the same level of umbrage. And that's problematic to me. The reason why is that if you compare the social impact of Ben A and Ben B it is almost certianly true that Ben B has a worse outcome than Ben A.

All o fhtis isn't to excuse racism, but to suggest there needs to be some nuance -- the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person (humans are complicated) and struggling to eliminate racism or castigate racists may not be the most important thing for a society to do. It was the most important thing when there was race based human chattel or even Jim Crow; but, is it the most improtant thing today? I don't know, but I have to imagine the most important thing about Ben's character isn't his views on race relations.

Quixotic
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Post by Quixotic » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:
Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”


Mods -- if this isn't appropriate, please delete. But there has been something that has been bothering me for a while -- as a soceity we treat racism as the ultimate sin.

Let's say Ben is a racist but takes no action except maybe snubbing a few black persons and generally holding a bad view of black people because of thier skin color. Not good -- I hope we can all agree that that is bad. But is it so bad that we need to record it for posterity?

Let's say there are two Bens:

Ben A is a racist (i.e., doesn't like black people because they are black, but the extent of it is that he holds negative thoughts about black people and is sometimes mean to them unjustly) and is otherwise perfect.

Ben B is an absentee, bad father but is otherwise perfect (i.e., not a racist).

Would Q make the same post that Ben B's shitness as a father should be recorded for posterity? Maybe Q would, but I don't think as a soceity we'd have the same level of umbrage. And that's problematic to me. The reason why is that if you compare the social impact of Ben A and Ben B it is almost certianly true that Ben B has a worse outcome than Ben A.

All o fhtis isn't to excuse racism, but to suggest there needs to be some nuance -- the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person (humans are complicated) and struggling to eliminate racism or castigate racists may not be the most important thing for a society to do. It was the most important thing when there was race based human chattel or even Jim Crow; but, is it the most improtant thing today? I don't know, but I have to imagine the most important thing about Ben's character isn't his views on race relations.


Q thinks you should read the sentence in context. First of all, he states that name-calling is a bad thing—racist, misogynist…whatever. So, by inference, everyone should just tone it down with the broad titles, ie. “Ben is a racist.” I was declared a bigot once because of a position i took regarding wetlands preservation following the New Orleans flood. As far as I could tell, the only basis for this was that my position varied from that of the person flinging the invective. Secondly, in the section you site, he gives a working definition of “racists” as someone whose defining characteristic is racism. So, by that standard, your basic white guy who would prefer that his daughter not date a black guy would probably not qualify. We’re talking…like…David Duke…Nathan Bedford Forrest. In that sort of case, then it probably should be recorded for posterity. Q also concludes that Ben is probably not a racist.

Q also believes that people who seek fame expose themselves to greater scrutiny that those who do not. So, Ben stiffs a waiter, he should expect that it will be publicized.

Q agrees with your desire for nuance. In fact, he believes his post is very nuanced.

Finally, why is Q speaking of himself in the third person? The question might be asked, why is Zeke5123 speaking of Q in the third person? 8-)

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Post by Legacy User » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person


Per se means "by itself." So, being racist alone does not make someone a bad person.

Does this hold up simply as stated or might it need some qualifications added? By itself racism does seem to make the racist a bad person because racism is certainly bad!

I think you should have said, "Being a racist does not make someone bad "absolutely" and "without qualification." Because being racist most certainly does make you a bad person: bad to the extent and degree to which one is racist.

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Post by zeke5123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:00 pm

Still Lit wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person


Per se means "by itself." So, being racist alone does not make someone a bad person.

Does this hold up simply as stated or might it need some qualifications added? By itself racism does seem to make the racist a bad person because racism is certainly bad!

I think you should have said, "Being a racist does not make someone bad "absolutely" and "without qualification." Because being racist most certainly does make you a bad person: bad to the extent and degree to which one is racist.


That creates an almost religious understanding of what makes someone "bad." Modern Christian doctrine would hold that all humans are "fallen" because everyone has committed at least one sin. In that way, Mother Teresa, regular Joe Blow, and Mao were all fallen (i.e., all a bad person). But I don't think anyone in actuality would think Mother Teresa (or swap her out with your person of choice) is a bad person while I hope almost all would agree that Mao was bad.

That is, our understanding of what makes someone bad isn't that they did a bad thing or have a bad thought; instead, it is whether they do enough bad things knowingly (i.e., mens rea). Maybe you want to categorize people all people as bad, but some less bad than others. But I doubt it.

Which brings me back to my point -- the "harmless" racist (think of maybe your grandparents, your uncles, etc.) might be a racist, but generally doesn't harm others. That "harmless" racist might do a lot of other good things. I am uncomfortable calling that person a bad person because good and bad are poles, and I think that person is more at one pole compared to the other.

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Post by zeke5123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:03 pm

Quixotic wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
Quixotic wrote:Coupla thoughts.

1. Name calling is getting to be a dangerous game as social media overtakes actual MEDIA for eyeballs and trust level. You can call someone a racist, or creeper, or perv, or misogynist…or whatever your want, with no supporting points for WHY you might say that. But the accusation itself becomes conviction in the eyes of some. And if you’re busted for it, you can always say: A)just kidding, B)satire, or C)well that’s just the way I “feel.” Not very good for domestic tranquility, if you know what I mean.

2. If Ben is a racist (which is to say if there actually is real evidence to support such an accusation), that would be a very bad thing. It should be recorded for posterity. And he should have to live with a compromised reputation for the rest of his life. Just like Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry, and probably Shoeless Joe Jackson. To me, that doesn’t have much impact on how his athletic achievements should be viewed (which invites the question, “why should athletic achievement matter so much, when there are so many more important issues?”).

3. More likely, Ben is a self-absorbed Millennial, who has benefited from white privilege, height privilege, elite-talent privilege, rich privilege, adored-by-throngs-of-fans privilege…. When others his age were learning to consider the feelings and needs of others, Ben had no reason to learn those things. So, he is kind of a goof, and kind of jerk to everyone. And, depending on the specific situation, it can seem racist, sexist, jockish, bullyish…whatever lens you’re viewing whatever incident through. Is he a “racist” at heart; is “racism” his defining characteristics. I doubt it. But I don’t know.

4. I don’t remember Mendenhall very well. Didn’t he get his sternum busted by Ray Lewis like the first game of his rookie season and spend the rest of the year visiting art museums? Dunno. I kind of recall his being kind of introverted (sulkey). And sometimes kind of subtle. Not real comfortable in his own skin (surprising for a budding NFL star). If my recollection is accurate, I can well imagine his having a sense of humor that would lead him to satirize the whole Ben/AB thing by trolling both sides. And I can imagine his response to people not getting the joke and being all pissy about it being something like his second tweet—“C’mon, y’all. Ben’s not a racist. AB is not trash. IT WAS A JOKE!”


Mods -- if this isn't appropriate, please delete. But there has been something that has been bothering me for a while -- as a soceity we treat racism as the ultimate sin.

Let's say Ben is a racist but takes no action except maybe snubbing a few black persons and generally holding a bad view of black people because of thier skin color. Not good -- I hope we can all agree that that is bad. But is it so bad that we need to record it for posterity?

Let's say there are two Bens:

Ben A is a racist (i.e., doesn't like black people because they are black, but the extent of it is that he holds negative thoughts about black people and is sometimes mean to them unjustly) and is otherwise perfect.

Ben B is an absentee, bad father but is otherwise perfect (i.e., not a racist).

Would Q make the same post that Ben B's shitness as a father should be recorded for posterity? Maybe Q would, but I don't think as a soceity we'd have the same level of umbrage. And that's problematic to me. The reason why is that if you compare the social impact of Ben A and Ben B it is almost certianly true that Ben B has a worse outcome than Ben A.

All o fhtis isn't to excuse racism, but to suggest there needs to be some nuance -- the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person (humans are complicated) and struggling to eliminate racism or castigate racists may not be the most important thing for a society to do. It was the most important thing when there was race based human chattel or even Jim Crow; but, is it the most improtant thing today? I don't know, but I have to imagine the most important thing about Ben's character isn't his views on race relations.


Q thinks you should read the sentence in context. First of all, he states that name-calling is a bad thing—racist, misogynist…whatever. So, by inference, everyone should just tone it down with the broad titles, ie. “Ben is a racist.” I was declared a bigot once because of a position i took regarding wetlands preservation following the New Orleans flood. As far as I could tell, the only basis for this was that my position varied from that of the person flinging the invective. Secondly, in the section you site, he gives a working definition of “racists” as someone whose defining characteristic is racism. So, by that standard, your basic white guy who would prefer that his daughter not date a black guy would probably not qualify. We’re talking…like…David Duke…Nathan Bedford Forrest. In that sort of case, then it probably should be recorded for posterity. Q also concludes that Ben is probably not a racist.

Q also believes that people who seek fame expose themselves to greater scrutiny that those who do not. So, Ben stiffs a waiter, he should expect that it will be publicized.

Q agrees with your desire for nuance. In fact, he believes his post is very nuanced.

Finally, why is Q speaking of himself in the third person? The question might be asked, why is Zeke5123 speaking of Q in the third person? 8-)


Few points:

1. I think your nuance was whether or not Ben was actually racist. The nuance I was getting at is that Ben could be a good guy ultimately while still being racist. Being racist is evidence that he isn't a good guy, but it is not the sole piece of evidence to consider.

2. I do think you approached it with nuance which is why I didn't try to say you hold certain views.

3. I was using your point as a springboard; not really responding to you (because I think your argument is a bit different). So, it felt odd to address it directly to you.

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Post by Legacy User » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:12 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person


Per se means "by itself." So, being racist alone does not make someone a bad person.

Does this hold up simply as stated or might it need some qualifications added? By itself racism does seem to make the racist a bad person because racism is certainly bad!

I think you should have said, "Being a racist does not make someone bad "absolutely" and "without qualification." Because being racist most certainly does make you a bad person: bad to the extent and degree to which one is racist.


That creates an almost religious understanding of what makes someone "bad." Modern Christian doctrine would hold that all humans are "fallen" because everyone has committed at least one sin. In that way, Mother Teresa, regular Joe Blow, and Mao were all fallen (i.e., all a bad person). But I don't think anyone in actuality would think Mother Teresa (or swap her out with your person of choice) is a bad person while I hope almost all would agree that Mao was bad.

That is, our understanding of what makes someone bad isn't that they did a bad thing or have a bad thought; instead, it is whether they do enough bad things knowingly (i.e., mens rea). Maybe you want to categorize people all people as bad, but some less bad than others. But I doubt it.

Which brings me back to my point -- the "harmless" racist (think of maybe your grandparents, your uncles, etc.) might be a racist, but generally doesn't harm others. That "harmless" racist might do a lot of other good things. I am uncomfortable calling that person a bad person because good and bad are poles, and I think that person is more at one pole compared to the other.


That creates an almost religious understanding of what makes someone "bad."

This does not follow from what I posted: AT ALL.

Because you yourself admit that racism is bad, you agree with everything I posted. Please reread. All I said is that because racism is bad, a person who is racist is bad to the extent that she or he is racist. That does not mean that she or he is absolutely bad or bad without qualification.

Nothing to do with Christian doctrine (and not sure you read Christian doctrine correctly, either).

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Post by 955876 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:19 pm

I believe there are FAR more accusations of racism hurled at those found to be in disagreement with an accuser than there is actual real racism in our society.

Racism is used for the delegitimization of a foe. It’s a handy tool for those who cannot debate something on its merit alone.

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Post by zeke5123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:30 pm

Lit

If your belief is that what makes someone bad is tally up good and bad actions / belief and see which one is larger, then your statement was mere surplusage and clearly agreed with my post.

Since I’m assuming you wouldn’t post in the manner you did if you agreed, then I’m left with the following:

1. You either believe people are both good and bad (ie there is no good or bad persons, but some people are more bad than others, which in practice isn’t any different than the statement above)

2. You think all are bad (ie fallen).

3. You think being a racist is enough to make someone shift from one pole to another.

So, which one is it?
Last edited by Guest on Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by zeke5123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Also, Christian doctrine is a separate matter but humans as fallen creatures is generally accepted (though Catholic views are perhaps more nuanced). Obviously, wasn’t always the case but original sin / fallen nature is relatively an accepted concept.

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Post by Legacy User » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:41 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:Lit

If your belief is that what makes someone bad is tally up good and bad actions / belief, then your statement was mere surplusage and clearly agreed with my post.

Since I’m assuming you wouldn’t post in the manner you did if you agreed, then I’m left with the following:

1. You either believe people are both good and bad (ie there is no good or bad persons, but some people are more bad than others, which in practice isn’t any different than the statement above)

2. You think all are bad (ie fallen).

3. You think being a racist is enough to make someone shift from one pole to another.

So, which one is it?


The bolded is utility and no, I do not agree with it. You know I lean toward eudaemonism. But that matters not. My response was in regards to your use of "per se."

I take issue that racism all by itself does not make someone bad. Surely it does. What it does not necessarily do is make someone absolutely and without qualification bad. But I do insist that being racist does make you, to the extent you are racist, a bad person.

Possibly in your utility you do not think that someone's character disposition is a relevant moral consideration on the grounds that only the consequences of actions are salient. But even if we ignore character disposition and go in for actions alone, at some point, if the intensity of racism is strong enough, the racist subject is going to begin action on that racism with deleterious consequences for that subject's fellows.

I do agree with your stance that being a racist does not make you bad simply. You can be racist and still have other good qualities. But my claim is that being racist, insofar as racism is bad, does make you bad to a certain extent.

I don't think we're that far apart, but I'm applying pressure, justified I think, to your per se comment.

But let's not fuck up the main page. Happy to PM and happy to let you have the last public post on this, too. Certainly I am not accusing of you of holding a *dumb* position. I just think it needed a qualifier.

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Post by zeke5123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:55 pm

Still Lit wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:Lit

If your belief is that what makes someone bad is tally up good and bad actions / belief, then your statement was mere surplusage and clearly agreed with my post.

Since I’m assuming you wouldn’t post in the manner you did if you agreed, then I’m left with the following:

1. You either believe people are both good and bad (ie there is no good or bad persons, but some people are more bad than others, which in practice isn’t any different than the statement above)

2. You think all are bad (ie fallen).

3. You think being a racist is enough to make someone shift from one pole to another.

So, which one is it?


The bolded is utility and no, I do not agree with it. You know I lean toward eudaemonism. But that matters not. My response was in regards to your use of "per se."

I take issue that racism all by itself does not make someone bad. Surely it does. What it does not necessarily do is make someone absolutely and without qualification bad. But I do insist that being racist does make you, to the extent you are racist, a bad person.

Possibly in your utility you do not think that someone's character disposition is a relevant moral consideration on the grounds that only the consequences of actions are salient. But even if we ignore character disposition and go in for actions alone, at some point, if the intensity of racism is strong enough, the racist subject is going to begin action on that racism with deleterious consequences for that subject's fellows.

I do agree with your stance that being a racist does not make you bad simply. You can be racist and still have other good qualities. But my claim is that being racist, insofar as racism is bad, does make you bad to a certain extent.

I don't think we're that far apart, but I'm applying pressure, justified I think, to your per se comment.

But let's not fuck up the main page. Happy to PM and happy to let you have the last public post on this, too. Certainly I am not accusing of you of holding a *dumb* position. I just think it needed a qualifier.


Sent you a PM. Happy to continue there.

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Post by Quixotic » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:54 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:
Quixotic wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
Mods -- if this isn't appropriate, please delete. But there has been something that has been bothering me for a while -- as a soceity we treat racism as the ultimate sin.

Let's say Ben is a racist but takes no action except maybe snubbing a few black persons and generally holding a bad view of black people because of thier skin color. Not good -- I hope we can all agree that that is bad. But is it so bad that we need to record it for posterity?

Let's say there are two Bens:

Ben A is a racist (i.e., doesn't like black people because they are black, but the extent of it is that he holds negative thoughts about black people and is sometimes mean to them unjustly) and is otherwise perfect.

Ben B is an absentee, bad father but is otherwise perfect (i.e., not a racist).

Would Q make the same post that Ben B's shitness as a father should be recorded for posterity? Maybe Q would, but I don't think as a soceity we'd have the same level of umbrage. And that's problematic to me. The reason why is that if you compare the social impact of Ben A and Ben B it is almost certianly true that Ben B has a worse outcome than Ben A.

All o fhtis isn't to excuse racism, but to suggest there needs to be some nuance -- the fact that someone might be racist doesn't make them per se a bad person (humans are complicated) and struggling to eliminate racism or castigate racists may not be the most important thing for a society to do. It was the most important thing when there was race based human chattel or even Jim Crow; but, is it the most improtant thing today? I don't know, but I have to imagine the most important thing about Ben's character isn't his views on race relations.


Q thinks you should read the sentence in context. First of all, he states that name-calling is a bad thing—racist, misogynist…whatever. So, by inference, everyone should just tone it down with the broad titles, ie. “Ben is a racist.” I was declared a bigot once because of a position i took regarding wetlands preservation following the New Orleans flood. As far as I could tell, the only basis for this was that my position varied from that of the person flinging the invective. Secondly, in the section you site, he gives a working definition of “racists” as someone whose defining characteristic is racism. So, by that standard, your basic white guy who would prefer that his daughter not date a black guy would probably not qualify. We’re talking…like…David Duke…Nathan Bedford Forrest. In that sort of case, then it probably should be recorded for posterity. Q also concludes that Ben is probably not a racist.

Q also believes that people who seek fame expose themselves to greater scrutiny that those who do not. So, Ben stiffs a waiter, he should expect that it will be publicized.

Q agrees with your desire for nuance. In fact, he believes his post is very nuanced.

Finally, why is Q speaking of himself in the third person? The question might be asked, why is Zeke5123 speaking of Q in the third person? 8-)


Few points:

1. I think your nuance was whether or not Ben was actually racist. The nuance I was getting at is that Ben could be a good guy ultimately while still being racist. Being racist is evidence that he isn't a good guy, but it is not the sole piece of evidence to consider.

2. I do think you approached it with nuance which is why I didn't try to say you hold certain views.

3. I was using your point as a springboard; not really responding to you (because I think your argument is a bit different). So, it felt odd to address it directly to you.


I live in Appalachia, where there are many, many, many “good people” who happen to suffer from xenophobia. So, I agree on your point #1.
Appreciate your point #2.
Cool with point #3.

Have a good one.

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Post by Lynch » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:21 am

Ben is giving racists everywhere a bad name :x

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Post by V DUB » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:44 am

This thread is starting to read more like an Author Conan Doyle read than a fucking message board. Calm your well read tits down, fellas.

Ben has stayed quiet, he should. Let the other noise in the NFL overtake it. Aaron Rodgers talking shit isn't a huge story, because nobody talks about it. Ben is a lightning rod, & should stfu with any & all drama.

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Post by Quixotic » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:15 pm

VanWilder wrote:This thread is starting to read more like an Author Conan Doyle read than a fucking message board. Calm your well read tits down, fellas.

Ben has stayed quiet, he should. Let the other noise in the NFL overtake it. Aaron Rodgers talking shit isn't a huge story, because nobody talks about it. Ben is a lightning rod, & should stfu with any & all drama.


Clearly, our colleague tires of nuance. Indeed, nuance fatigue abounds globally. 8-)

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Post by Gonzo » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:05 pm

You should continue the conversation elsewhere
nuance and word choice absolutely do matter
Mistrust of outsiders is not abnormal
Local traditions and culture are generally good things to be protected
Racism may be deep-seated but it is not good and should not be considered tradition.
It can be removed as IMHO it is not a part of any real fabric.

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